So... Thoughts so far?

[HornetMaX]

Yea, I tried MaxTorque but it was not what I was expecting.  DirectSteer is more what I had in mind and more similar to MXS.

How do you even keep up with DirectSteer? It feels nothing like mxs to me :p All i do is fall over.

Well its definitely extreme because there is no stabilizer at all.  I don't know exactly how it works in MXS but all those parameters in the Advanced Stability are there to help the rider keep the bike from just falling over.  In MXB with Direct Steer enabled you have to countersteer constantly to keep the bike from falling all the way over but if the "non-hardcore" stabilizer helped it would be similar to MXS.

If we could set a mix between the 2 so that the stabilizer would only help keep the bike up but not stand it up straight that would probably be a decent attempt for right now but IDK if Piboso is interested in working on "Hardcore Mode" he seems more fond of the regular mode.

There is no more work to do on the hardcore modes, except tuning of the torque for mode 2.
Unless you want external, fake, forces to keep the bike from falling, that are out of the question.

"Hehe ... these MX guys are not yet familiar with the Piboso attitude toward simulation

Get used to it guys, it's not gonna change. And that's a good thing."

No wait .. deja vu ? 

MaX.

[bearded4glory]

Yea, I tried MaxTorque but it was not what I was expecting.  DirectSteer is more what I had in mind and more similar to MXS.

How do you even keep up with DirectSteer? It feels nothing like mxs to me :p All i do is fall over.

Well its definitely extreme because there is no stabilizer at all.  I don't know exactly how it works in MXS but all those parameters in the Advanced Stability are there to help the rider keep the bike from just falling over.  In MXB with Direct Steer enabled you have to countersteer constantly to keep the bike from falling all the way over but if the "non-hardcore" stabilizer helped it would be similar to MXS.

If we could set a mix between the 2 so that the stabilizer would only help keep the bike up but not stand it up straight that would probably be a decent attempt for right now but IDK if Piboso is interested in working on "Hardcore Mode" he seems more fond of the regular mode.

There is no more work to do on the hardcore modes, except tuning of the torque for mode 2.
Unless you want external, fake, forces to keep the bike from falling, that are out of the question.

What I am hoping for is some sort of combination between the automated balancing that is done in the non hardcore mode and the non existent balancing in hardcore mode.  Basically if moving the steer stick adjusted the target lean angle and stayed at that new angle if no more input was made (stick centered) or something like that.

This is without the use of any external fake forces, just changing how and when the computer helps the user balance with the already implemented balancing you have developed.

But hey it is your sim, you can do as you wish.

[HornetMaX]

Hmm ... rewording properly, I guess what bearded4glory is asking is a mode where the stick position dictates a "target lean rate" instead of a "target lean angle".
This means: the more you push the stick to the right, the quicker the bike leans to the right. When you center the stick, the bike keeps the current lean.

I don't think it's less noble than the current target lean, even if for sure it's not any "purer" (pure = direct steer).
What I don't know is if it is any better. Could be interesting to try.

MaX.

[PiBoSo]

Hmm ... rewording properly, I guess what bearded4glory is asking is a mode where the stick position dictates a "target lean rate" instead of a "target lean angle".
This means: the more you push the stick to the right, the quicker the bike leans to the right. When you center the stick, the bike keeps the current lean.

I don't think it's less noble than the current target lean, even if for sure it's not any "purer" (pure = direct steer).
What I don't know is if it is any better. Could be interesting to try.

MaX.

If this is what bearded4glory suggests, it will be added in Beta2.

[bearded4glory]

Hmm ... rewording properly, I guess what bearded4glory is asking is a mode where the stick position dictates a "target lean rate" instead of a "target lean angle".
This means: the more you push the stick to the right, the quicker the bike leans to the right. When you center the stick, the bike keeps the current lean.

I don't think it's less noble than the current target lean, even if for sure it's not any "purer" (pure = direct steer).
What I don't know is if it is any better. Could be interesting to try.

MaX.

Yea, I mean something where you could have a % of hardcore mode mixed with the "stock" mode is sort of what I am looking for.  There would be parameters (behind the scenes or adjustable up to dev team) that control how user input is used and when to help balance the bike.  The idea is to get the feeling of counter steering the bike to bring it upright after a turn without having to balance it for a desired lean angle.

I guess my feeling (and the feeling of a lot of people who have commented elsewhere) is that it feels too "arcadey".  While the behind the scenes simulation may be more complicated than other comparable games or sims the user does not experience much of that.  Lots of us are looking for a more challenging sim with more user input required to make a clean lap.  I don't necessarily want it to be perfect at holding a lean angle but require me to make corrections at the same time.  Hardcore mode is more similar to what I am looking for vs. non hardcore mode its just very hard to control at low speeds aninkd in tight corners so some help there would make it perfect.  In a pinch I think I could probably learn it given enough time, in the hour or so I have played with it I have made probably 1/2 a clean lap on the Practice track and I am not going to be the best rider so I bet there are people that could easily do a full lap.

Its hard to say exactly how to accomplish this, obviously I am under qualified for the job or I would have already done it and made millions.  Maybe a max steering angle of correction based on bike speed would be something to look into.  Then the user would still need to make corrections but the bike would try to stay upright to an extent.

Piboso, I am sorry if I have given you the wrong impression about me.  I am not being critical of you or your methods I am just trying to give my feedback on how I think the sim could be improved as far as the user experience.  It really comes alive when you remove all the assists and turn on hardcore mode but maybe I am not quite hardcore enough for that.

[shanebell618]

When you center the stick, the bike keeps the current lean.

MaX.

This is what I want 

[ChrisK]

Hmm ... rewording properly, I guess what bearded4glory is asking is a mode where the stick position dictates a "target lean rate" instead of a "target lean angle".
This means: the more you push the stick to the right, the quicker the bike leans to the right. When you center the stick, the bike keeps the current lean.

I don't think it's less noble than the current target lean, even if for sure it's not any "purer" (pure = direct steer).
What I don't know is if it is any better. Could be interesting to try.

MaX.

If this is what bearded4glory suggests, it will be added in Beta2.

perfect!!

[HornetMaX]

Yea, I mean something where you could have a % of hardcore mode mixed with the "stock" mode is sort of what I am looking for.  There would be parameters (behind the scenes or adjustable up to dev team) that control how user input is used and when to help balance the bike.  The idea is to get the feeling of counter steering the bike to bring it upright after a turn without having to balance it for a desired lean angle.

The only way to get a feeling of counter steering is to use direct steering (torque or angle).

The suggestion I made after your comment (target lean rate) will not leave counter steering in your hands. However it would have the property "stick in the middle = the bike holds the current lean angle". It's definitely not "a % of hardcore mode mixed with the "stock" mode, but allows to have what you're looking for in terms of stick behaviour with the "virtual rider' taking care of the bike stability (as in the default mode).

I guess my feeling (and the feeling of a lot of people who have commented elsewhere) is that it feels too "arcadey".  While the behind the scenes simulation may be more complicated than other comparable games or sims the user does not experience much of that.  Lots of us are looking for a more challenging sim with more user input required to make a clean lap.

Just my opinion, but that's a bad approach: the difficulty in running a bike in real life is not due to the control method, it's due to the bike physics. It's like saying that riding a bike with two buttons instead of a handlebar is better because it's more challenging.

I just want to play the way it is meant to be played, lol. No reason to make this control like mxs......just play mxs.

So pib (or max) is the default game the intended game? Or is this hardcore mode (havent tried) a more pure solution?

The hardcore mode (direct steer torque and angle) are the purest solutions, with direct steer torque being even purer than direct steer angle.
However, they are not well suited to the usual input devices (joypads or even steering wheels with force feedback) and of course the fact that you miss a lot of physical feedback (not being on a real ike) makes it worse.
Historically direct steer has been introduced in GPB later on, upon request from some users (including me) but more as a curiosity than anything else.
I'd say TWIMTBP is the regular mode, not the direct steer mode. But the "target lean rate" mode could be seen as a variation of the regular mode and may make sense, at least to some.

MaX.

[HornetMaX]

Ok ,.....im stupid. Twimtbp?

The Way It's Meant To Be Played

A silly nvidia marketing gimmick of a while ago, not sure the original poster was aware of it.

Edit: what do u play max? Regular? Just curious.....or do u play? I know gp is where your heart is

I play a little MXB (still have to put together a lap without falling). In MXB as in GPB, I'm a regular (no direct steer) with direct lean on (which is not so usual for GPB), on an xbox pad (one, but also have a 360). But I'm by no mean a reference player (neither in GPB nor in MXB), for sure. I do like to chit-chat about physics and tech stuff however.

I'm mostly curious as MXB is technically way more challenging than GPB for Piboso.

MaX.

[onlyonetone]

Hey max did you say you have a setting to keep the ride from automatically centering? You said stick in middle position holds the current lean angle. Definitely need to know how to do this.

[Ehm24]

Honestly, I feel like the game is so on point. It feels so much like real life on the ground. Only things that I can criticize is no backup button (I guess reset is okay but I like backup more) and how weird is it to steer at slow speeds. Also, I wish that we can lean into the jump more without falling over, like all the way over so we can actually scrub and bring the bike back. Other than that the game feels perfect, it's so easy to play if you think about how to ride in real life. (unless you suck in real life too haha)

[MXK_cdub85]

no backup button (I guess reset is okay but I like backup more)

take a look at the settings. under the input 2 tab below Controls, theres low speed. default is L and O on the keyboard.

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

I agree ehm.. I never got past 80cc when I was younger and thats going back 17 years or so, but I used to love tearing around our two local quarries and it feels the closest to that out of all the mx games / sim... Got a real feeling of on the edge of control when you're trying to be fast

[HornetMaX]

Ya mxb is challenging. Prob more than gpb (easier to keep on ground than air 😃)

Even on the ground, MXB is more challenging due to the terrain-tire interaction, non-flat terrain surface, terrain deformation ...

So u use direct lean? Thought that was only for steering wheels?

I think Piboso originally meant Direct Lean for (quote) "high precision input devices" (i.e. proper joysticks and wheels) and I know that in his definition a joypad (even a good one) does not fall under that category (he once stated he plays with direct lean off).

What bothers me with direct lean off is that your input is strongly filtered, especially in the release phase. Do this (easier with GPB): bike vertical, pull fully to the right: the bike will lean right pretty quickly, that's fine. Now with the bike leant right, move your stick to the middle: the bike will go vertical, but very slowly. So slowly that normally to pick the bike up you need to pull the stick left. This thing just annoys me. But again, the vast majority of GPB players (and for sure practically all the fast ones) use direct lean off.

Hey max did you say you have a setting to keep the ride from automatically centering? You said stick in middle position holds the current lean angle. Definitely need to know how to do this.

At the moment it's not possible, it was only a suggestion to answer what bearded4glory was requesting.
Piboso commented that if the thing has an interest, he may introduce it in beta2.

MaX.

[Ehm24]

no backup button (I guess reset is okay but I like backup more)

take a look at the settings. under the input 2 tab below Controls, theres low speed. default is L and O on the keyboard.

Oh sweet, thanks man!