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[inside]

Teeds has said pretty much everything about the subject and I just want to say that very good (and smart) riders will occasionaly lean towards the inside of the turn when it's doable and necessary.

Ryan Villopoto is a great example of that (especially on fast flat corner exits like the first pic) and I think it's very much one of the reasons of his success and great corner speed.

In real life as a spectator, I've also seen Chad Reed do that in supercross back in 2004. Pretty much the only rider of the field to do it, he crushed it and won all the races of the night.

Hey guys (I'm Asdrael's brother).

To Mace: regarding the textures of the track, I tested earlier versions with more detailed textures. To be honest it was making my framerate go down (more than any other track ever) so I asked Asdrael if it was possible to get better framerate and they did a great job with that. I think this concern was legitimate because my PC is more or less a below average gaming PC (it was very high-end... 6 years ago) and we were sure other people were also going to run into problems.  The textures don't look any worse now and if anything, the track looks actually much better because since that early version TFC has added trees and everything.

To TFC: I never got to thank you "in person" so really, congratulations on this track, awesome job, I had fun testing it from the start and it kept getting better and better

About the triples being small: to be honest, if you go see a supercross race in real life, the triples are big but not huge. 2nd gear on a 450 IRL in the US. Some motocross jumps are much much bigger!

[A few beginner tips]

A few beginner tips on this track (I'm Asdrael's brother, helped testing the track). I almost never play MXB but was able to quickly get down to 1'03 laps with these tips:
- Suspension settings are important. A harder fork helps. Generally you want a stiff bike.
- for the whoops, make sure you're almost perfectly straight, I use 2nd gear on a 250 2 stroke, 3/4 throttle, lean all the way back. Don't change direction.
- for the rythym section, the "easy line" I use is to absorb the first bump and then do 2-2-2-2-2. Very easy to do lap after lap without crashing.
- generally speaking, once you start a rythym section, you don't want to turn at all during the whole section, and if you absolutely have to, be careful with it

Have fun

I understand your point of view. Also I liked the Barry Sheene vs Kenny Roberts point which is true and shows that both are possible. Anyway, I say we head back to the MX discussion as this is an MX Simulator forum. Otherwise the mods will kill us.

I think Max could be on to something with the virtual rider messing up the input around the handlebars especially when sliding... Also, Max, what about what Noss found out on the French forums? Have you made sense of it all yet? Also I'm still waiting for you to come to Paris to ride with me at the racetrack

It is far from being just the likes of Marc Marquez who can rear wheel steer. But it is employed to a much lesser extent than witnessed in that video

And a much much lesser extent than in Motocross!!!

Also I still want to add that a lot of good racers don't use the technique at all. A good riding buddy of mine races in the front at a national level (he's the 2014 "European Bikes" champion in France on a BMW S1000RR) and doesn't use this except with a very very small amplitude.

The problem I have with people saying that in roadracing rear wheel turning is used a lot, is that it gives the impression that it's used in every single turn by every guy. That's just totally wrong. However in MX it IS used in almost every turn and by almost every guy and that was my initial point. My initial point being that it's much harder to do in road racing than in MX. That was my only point.

I still like you Tracey of course <3

[I'm a much better road racer than I am an MX rider and yet I can slide a bike easily off road and not on asphalt.]

You are grossly underestimating how much a GP bike slides around on a track. 

Phathry25, I wasn't talking about Gp bikes in particular. These do slide a lot but it's mostly because the riders are amazing.

I was talking about the average motocross rider vs the average roadracing guy.
In about 100 track days (most of them in the fast group) I've almost never seen the rear end of a bike sliding in a consistent and predictable way with a good amount of opposite lock.
Whereas in motocross you see it all the time from average riders...

So all i'm saying is that at an amateur level sliding is easier off road and therefore should be easier in MX bikes than in Gp bikes. I'm a much better road racer than I am an MX rider and yet I can slide a bike easily off road and not on asphalt.

The images of GP riders sliding the bike have given the impression to the public that everyone in road racing does that.  Go to any track day and try to see anyone sliding in an MX way at an amateur level or even a national level: you won't see many at all.

That's really all I was saying. The GP guys are very unique in their skills... Most national riders I've shared the track with didn't slide much except under braking.

Last month I followed GP rider Jules Danilo on his 125 for training for a whole lap (I was on my 600 and able to follow, only because of the bike ) and I didn't see any sliding from him, even in very very slow turns where his bike would have enough power for it (but I do agree it's not the best example because sliding is rarer on smaller bikes ).

I'm talking bout corner exits, not the beginning of turns by the way.
Also when I say road racing I'm talking about road racing bikes, not supermoto bikes that have a completely different geometry.

And when I say "slide the rear" I don't mean the occasionnal movement of the rear tyre in road racing (that happens often). I'm talking about the rear really stepping out and going very much sideways, with a good amount of opposite lock.

Can anyone do something similar to this picture on a road bike? A few stunt guys maybe, but not many people. Sliding is pretty easy off road. You can even goof around with it, it's really not that difficult.

Sliding the rear of a motocross bike under acceleration is very much a basic motocross skill (1) and happens very often (2).

Easier or harder than on road bikes ? 'Cause road bikers says the same: sliding the rear on the throttle should be fairly easy.

From what I see, it is more frequent (and likely easier) in MX. What do you think ?

MaX.

Much, much easier on a motocross bike. Most road bikers I've seen who say "it's very easy to powerslide the rear" were either World level riders (and I believe them) or the local guy who's never been on a racetrack and who has no clue how to do it but likes to think he's a world champion...

Also I would like to say something about sliding the rear end on an MX bike because it can be difficult for some people to realize if you only have been on pavement or haven't ridden motocross.

Sliding the rear of a motocross bike under acceleration is very much a basic motocross skill (1) and happens very often (2). What i'm saying is that it should be quite easy to start and easy to maintain in a simulation.

1) How easy? Well, to be honest, even though I can ride motocross OK having ridden for many years, I was not at all the fastest kid at the racetrack - more towards the middle/ back of the pack on a good day . And even at my level sliding the rear was very easy, even on long slides, and even on a small bike like an 80cc. In fact I don't know any average motocross rider who cannot slide the rear of the bike. It's just a very basic skill. It is much easier than in road racing because the way tyres are made and the way the grip level of the track is much lower, the sliding is very smooth and not violent like in road racing, especially when the grip "comes back" - you see many more high sides in road racing than you do in motocross. In fact the term is never used in MX.

2) I also want to point out that it happens extremely often. In fact, in real life, the majority of corner exits are done with the rear slightly sideways.

I just felt like saying all this because in my opinion I think this is very much a big part of motocross and should be part of any good simulation.

Pic of a very very typical cornet exit to illustrate:

I'm pretty sure this is what's called "opposite lock" the same thing used in car drifting and speeway to hold the car or bike in a semi spin while the back end slides.

Yes I was talking exactly about opposite lock - let's agree on this term

Also when I say that's the meaning of countersteering in MX, it is in France, Belgium and the Netherlands (these were the countries where I rode). I don't know about the US

To be honest Max this is largely a misunderstanding of the term "counter-steering" in MX and roadracing.
I grew up riding motocross before switching to road-racing 5 years ago (I still ride MX 2 or 3 times a year on local racetracks for training and fun)

In roadracing, as you know, the term "counter-steering" is used for pushing on one side of the handlebar to make the bike lean on that side (a lot of riders also often pull on that same side to pick the bike up after the turn - same phenomenon). This is due to the gyro effect (if you make a wheel rotate around an axis and turn the axis horizontaly, the wheel will actually lean with good force - this is very counter intuitive) and also because you're essentially making the bike fall over by moving the front tyre contact away from the direction of the bike.

In motocross, the term "counter-steering" is used in a very different (and wrong, but that's ok to me) way: it is used to describe the fact that when you slide the rear wheel, you keep the front wheel aligned with your direction of travel. I've never heard it used in the same way than roadracing. For this reason, it IS similar to a car drifting.

Just thought I'd make this clear because it creates a lot of confusion between roadracers and MX guys.

Edit: until I started roadracing I had never even heard about actual countersteering in the road sense. It's not even acknowledged in MX. But the dynamics of leaning a bike over in MX is very different overall: the body positioning, sliding the rear wheel in and out of a corner, etc... The underlying physics are very close, but the feeling is completely different.