MX Bikes Official Forum

General Category => Bug Reports => Topic started by: Asdrael on March 17, 2017, 11:38:17 AM

Title: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 17, 2017, 11:38:17 AM
Going to try to keep a beta6 bug list updated. Feel free to contribute, document properly if possible. That means:
- description of the bug (what it is, where / how it happens)
- how to reproduce it

Multiplayer

Gravity not affecting other players fully
- When jumping, even is all is fine for your own bike and rider, it appears that other players are not affected by gravity fully (I'd say they have half). They jump, fly high and far but with a normal trajectory. When they land on their computer (which is, for other players, still way high almost at apex), their bike warps back to the ground.
- Seen and reproduced anytime, any ping, online with everyone. Might be linked to the distance to the other player (very close is smooth, a few meters away it starts being choppy).

Stock bike mismatch
Some people have reported that with a fresh install, trying to join a stock server (no mods running), they get "bike mismatch".
Not reproducible nor predictable (?)
Afaik, Teeds had it but retrying without changing anything let him through, Mattias has it, no idea if fixed.

Bandwidth Setting
It appears the Low setting on the bandwidth parameters provides a smoother multiplayer movement. Placebo? Tried with Philian, it felt smoother with Low rather than high.

Multiplayer loading
It feels like people logging on will cause the same "loading lag" whether they log on a server with a new bike or a bike already present and loaded on the server. Multiple loading of the same model (possibly justifies why people core like hell above a certain number of players).

Setup

Setting resets
For some people, the bike setup sometime bugs out and doesn't load, giving a value of 1 everywhere.


Riding

Landing seated bug
Remnant from beta 5. When you jump higher than a meter, if you land while sitting a tad to fully on the back, you auto dismount 90% of the time. Even when landing soft as a feather.

Deformation
Seen last night in SX: way too many laps run on the same track, at one point at a heavily rutted location, a spike appeared. It is similar to what you get when you change the heightmap without resetting deformation when creating a track and trying it out in game. It looks like a fez pixels of the heightmap assign themselves the maximum height value. Never seen it playing solo.

Deformation
Deformation is not continuous between 2 different materials, even if the masks used overlap with a transparency gradient. The ruts stop pretty abruptly and give a wierd kick when you ride over them. Example on FTT, transition between Soft Soil and Sand (see left side):


Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: GDUBMX on March 18, 2017, 01:37:29 PM
Setup bug
Now this could be an issue with and old setup being loaded, I'm not sure. However, occasionally when you load into game sometimes if you just press to track and go you find that your bike settings are totally messed up, 1 bump, 1 rebound, 5 1st gears? The ratios are all the same throughout each gear as if they are all 1st gear.

Netcode

Now greatly improved we still notice that during replay playback online bikes sometimes ride smooth and perfect but more often still bounce about and sink into the ground etc. I'm not sure if beta 6 was supposed to be a total netcode fix or if it was a 70% fix for now type thing, I hope the latter.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on March 18, 2017, 01:45:25 PM
Regarding the jumping around, I have noticed when you ride close to someone they appear much smoother, when someone is 100m from you they look like they have a ping of 500..

Could just be coincidental, but I've spotted this a few times.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 18, 2017, 03:24:28 PM
Thanks, updated.

Quote from: GDUBMX on March 18, 2017, 01:37:29 PM
Setup bugNow this could be an issue with and old setup being loaded, I'm not sure. However, occasionally when you load into game sometimes if you just press to track and go you find that your bike settings are totally messed up, 1 bump, 1 rebound, 5 1st gears? The ratios are all the same throughout each gear as if they are all 1st gear.

It *might* be a corrupted setup file or bike.cfg file. It sounds similar to what happens when there is a typo in the ID name in the bike.cfg file.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 19, 2017, 11:41:23 PM
Landing seated bug
Remnant from beta 5. When you jump higher than a meter, if you land while sitting a tad to fully on the back, you auto dismount 90% of the time. Even when landing soft as a feather.

Bandwidth Setting
It appears the Low setting on the bandwidth parameters provides a smoother multiplayer movement. Placebo? Tried with Philian, it felt smoother with Low rather than high.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 19, 2017, 11:51:59 PM
Quote from: geofanatec on March 19, 2017, 11:46:46 PM
^ Should I also set the servers to "low" in options for the .ini?

Maybe could make difference as well?

We were talking about it with Phil. Maybe set one of the 2 OEM on "Low" and see? (put it in server name so we know please).
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on March 20, 2017, 12:05:22 AM
On in 10 mins if you guys are still on, I'll set my bandwidth to 'low'.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 20, 2017, 12:23:13 AM
Thanks geo - tested a bit (with Philian again). Both of us with 120 or so ping.

Our reference was Client + Server HIGH.

Client LOW server HIGH seemed already better, as it provided less "horizontal warping" (less frequent + less distance).

Client LOW server LOW appears to be even better. Horizontal warping happens a bit more often but with very limited distance. Vertical warping seemed reduced as well. Although this time it was 3 people on the server only compared to 6 earlier.

In all cases, the gravity bug was present and didn't seem to be affected.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: HornetMaX on March 20, 2017, 08:35:52 AM
Not 100% sure but using "low" on server/client side may affect the max number of riders you can see on track (you only see the N closest ones, N changing depending on server/client high/med/low bandwidth).
Would be better to check with PiBoSo.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Braap570 on March 20, 2017, 08:54:23 AM
since beta 6 sometimes i have super lags while playing online. my ping goes up to the moon and i dont know why. i ve this issue only in mxb.

my ping in mxs or on ps4 battlefield 1 and other games its always good to play. but in mxb its getting so high that i cant hear the people in skype while riding any more :/

and its just sometimes. so the game runs fine and then there are 3 or 4 minutes where i cant even hear anyone and then the game runs normal again for a little while.

does someone of you know what a could try to change?!
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 21, 2017, 02:36:13 PM
No idea Braap, sorry. Check that your MXBikes.exe is going through your firewall ok. Although regular massive ping spikes can be linked to a Trojan, so make sure your firewall, antivirus are up to date and running.

Deformation
Seen last night in SX: way too many laps run on the same track, at one point at a heavily rutted location, a spike appeared. It is similar to what you get when you change the heightmap without resetting deformation when creating a track and trying it out in game. It looks like a fez pixels of the heightmap assign themselves the maximum height value. Never seen it playing solo.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Vortex_Damien on March 23, 2017, 04:57:20 AM
i actually had this bug earlier in solo, it was when i crashed i sat the game down for a little and it was there when i reset back to the track
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on March 24, 2017, 08:22:01 AM
This is not really a bug but I just thought of posting it. The traction of the the dirt tires seems to be far less than IRL. Seems like every track is a hard-packed track that you can't go fast in corners when you have to, not even the ruts can help out. Dirt tires don't significantly impact the grip.

I am not sure if this was mentioned in a post (pretty sure it was, I just can't back-read everything) but I hope it gets better so in game, you're gonna see a smooth cornering just like IRL. In the game, when approaching a corner, you have to come to almost stop so as not lose traction and slide out your rear tire. It would probably be nice if there is a little fight for traction that your bike slides a bit but you can still ease off the throttle and regain traction like how it should be. Feels like bike sliding and upright are only separated by a very fine line.

(I apologize if this is in the wrong thread)

Thanks!
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Ruubs on March 24, 2017, 08:26:32 AM
Luckily this is a known problem!
Piboso is still working on improving the dirt simulation.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 24, 2017, 10:35:22 AM
Yeah for the tyres it's mostly at very low speed, but tbh, I don't think it's that bad anymore after getting used to it. It depends a LOT on the bike geometry, setup, your position and your smoothness on the controls but I find myself sliding way less those days. Maybe I'm slow tho :p
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on March 24, 2017, 11:56:37 AM
I think too that the heightmap plays a big part. In real life dirt is not smooth, yet most tracks are. I've experimented before with very small amounts of noise on a track and while it felt like it have better grip on some places, it ruined other aspects. Soil simulation feels like it needs some work, I'd love a value controlled surface system rather than a pre set one we have now.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: GDUBMX on March 24, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
Have you been riding the OEMs BJ? They have better tire physics as they have been molded by a community member.

I'd love to see a revamp in the dirt and simulation of that, although we have berms and some lines for the most part the track is like TFC said just smooth. We need something along the lines of spintires/mxgp/reflex toned down but with the physical effect. I thinj spintires uses physical effects with its dirt not just visual.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 24, 2017, 11:19:39 PM
Deformation
Deformation is not continuous between 2 different materials, even if the masks used overlap with a transparency gradient. The ruts stop pretty abruptly and give a wierd kick when you ride over them. Example on FTT, transition between Soft Soil and Sand (see left side):


Multiplayer loading
It feels like people logging on will cause the same "loading lag" whether they log on a server with a new bike or a bike already present and loaded on the server. Multiple loading of the same model (possibly justifies why people core like hell above a certain number of players).
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on March 25, 2017, 06:11:55 AM
yes GDub I have been. It in fact has more grip than when I started out with the orange bikes. I hope it gets better sooner.

    One more thing I notice, the clutch is somewhat being held up when you tap the brake mid-air causing you to lose engine braking even after hitting the ground. I tried all of the bikes and they behave the same including the default bikes in game. It doesn't matter where you are on the gear once you tap the brake mid air, you'll just hear the engine will idle until you squeeze the throttle again to sort of like disengage the clutch again and regain engine braking.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: GDUBMX on March 28, 2017, 06:44:11 PM
Occasionally when exiting a track in offline testing mode and loading up another my game crashes probably 60% of the time and I have to restart mx bikes. But what happens is when I click start and the mobiles has stopped working box pop up I then see exactly where I quit the last track in the background, so it seems although you back out completely the memory still has the previous session stored.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on March 28, 2017, 07:41:38 PM
Thanks for the reports - but honestly GDub, you seem to have more problems than most of us lately (including more cores), all seemingly popping when you are accessing / swapping a lot of info in the memory... O/Ced your RAM too high or something?
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: GDUBMX on March 28, 2017, 07:44:59 PM
Could be possible, the processor has been overclocked but I may need to check my ram settings. Good point nico
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on March 28, 2017, 11:32:16 PM
Something else not right about deformation.

It always seems to stop about half a foot before the peak of a jump. This causes nosedives when it gets too bad. Very noticeable in SX, not so noticeable on national tracks as the jumps are more mellow.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on March 28, 2017, 11:44:39 PM
Maybe.. I thought either that, or the bike doesn't give as much pressure on to the track at the peak of a jump and the way it determines how much deformation is applied needs some tweaks..
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Flori_643 on March 29, 2017, 02:58:54 PM
Another Bug i found. Do you have a solution ?
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Ruubs on March 29, 2017, 07:28:07 PM
Should this be in this topic as well? Not specific a beta 6 bug. Was intruduced in beta 5 (as far as I know), but is still very annoying.

https://youtu.be/Gk1s7RpdQ2s
https://youtu.be/xeGXyMNRQ3k

Also the landing on back wheel bug is something to note.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on March 29, 2017, 07:54:28 PM
OH GOD YES.. Good job sandy.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: CSchmied986 on April 01, 2017, 02:11:56 AM
My most hated bug is the "boner air" problem. On many jumps, if you go off of them with the throttle on you cannot get the front wheel down. Also, does anyone else notice that if you lean forward in the air, the bike leans further back instead of forward??

Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: CSchmied986 on April 01, 2017, 03:15:55 AM
Well I have a good suspension setup, and learned to compensate long ago, I'm just saying that it is a "bug" in the physics, and is backwards to real life. My point was to say it is something that needs to be fixed. And the fact that F/B seems reversed in the air but not on the ground is a major bug in my opinion.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: CSchmied986 on April 01, 2017, 03:39:16 AM
I guess im just saying that in real life ive never seen anyone going over the bars, then leaned forward to bring the front wheel up. Pulling and pushing on the bars and and leaning are not the same concept because applying force to the bars IRL is a force between the upper body and hand and does not require F/B movement vs. leaning F/B which is manipulating the  overall C/G from your body weight inertia.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 03:47:16 AM
in real life, in mid air, you can't lean forward without pulling the handlebars back. If you are on the ground or shall we say stand still, then you can lean forward or back without pulling or pushing the fron end. This is not a bug. This not a mistake either. This just how it would have to. The rear brake tap however could use a little bit more effect when looping out and of course the auto clutch is horible. When you use your rear brake, whether mid air or on the ground, automatic the clutch is held until you hit the throttle again coz your bike will continue to run freewheel. Looping out could be compensated by tapping the rear brake (of course everyone knows) but the bike always goes clutch-engage and lose engine braking.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 04:12:00 AM
It is called anticipation when jumping. You know the bike's attitude even before you take off and once mid air, you already had made corrections whether it is the brake tap or the panic rev together with your body's position with regards to your CG. It all happens in one motion. Not while in mid air that you can always make corrections. Just my two cents thanks.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 08:41:55 AM
What went wrong? Was my landing so bad?

check this video out. thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVzRBjinZzE&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: CSchmied986 on April 01, 2017, 08:44:39 AM
Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 04:12:00 AM
It is called anticipation when jumping. You know the bike's attitude even before you take off and once mid air, you already had made corrections whether it is the brake tap or the panic rev together with your body's position with regards to your CG. It all happens in one motion. Not while in mid air that you can always make corrections. Just my two cents thanks.

Guessing not many people on this forum are actual motocross racers?? ??? When I 'seat bounce' a jump IRL, I leave the takeoff full throttle, throw my weight as far back as possible, then AFTER leaving the jump, I throw my weight forward and hit the rear break (IN MID AIR) to make the appropriate corrections needed.  But here are some easy visual examples.

This guy is NOT trying to push the front down, and the bike ATTITUDE is changing as he leaves the jump.


THIS is correcting IN MID AIR for a high front end. (He's forcing the front down, not up)
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 09:01:58 AM
Seatbounce is a different story. Because you are changing your CG on the ground. And of course you want to have as much grip on your rear as possible and as much rebound as possible so you as a rider can have a little throw from the bike so you can clip the bike with you and gain some more distance. The issue was when you loop out and you wanna correct it and someone said the behaviour is reverse when it wasn't. Try to be mid air and there change your center of gravity if you can without trying to pull or push the bar. The picture  will hardly explain it because it does not have momentum.  As I said, it all in one motion from the face, to the lip, to take off and in mid air all in one motion with anticipation of what's going to happen next.Anyway, For now, I am enjoying the game that it has so much differences from mx simulator (which I like) and not trying to make an arguement Thanks!
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 09:07:14 AM
here is a seatbounce taught by Ryan Hughes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9wcoubWl7o
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on April 01, 2017, 09:28:36 AM
I posted about this recently replying to Rutjes. I can only relate to dirt jumping bmx and mtb for a good 10 years of my life, but the principals are the same when it comes to body position (you have to exclude the gyros from that comparison though). It really is all about how you leave a jump, in real life, in bmx, in mx, in mxb..

In real life, how many people do you see start leaning forward or backward half way through their air time? Only the ones who are trying to save a jump gone wrong.. Maybe the odd rear wheel dip down while leaning forward for a bit of style here and there..

In mxb it also depends on the bike angle, for example if you're already nosediving, leaning back helps. If you're not nosediving and the bike is already following a good trajectory and let's say it's level, the bike will take the forces from putting weight over the back end and pushing down on the bars to physically move yourself back and for the most part stay level.

Leaning forward is the same. If your nose high and you lean forward and brake it helps. I guess this is because to lean forward you're pushing down on the pegs but as the bike is nose high this is towards the back of the bike rather than the floor as if the bike was level, but if you lean forward on a level and correct trajectory it dips the back slightly as you're pushing with your feet to get there, you're forces are now down towards the rear swingarm.

If you hold this lean, things then start to change more as you'd expect, but in real life how many people do you see drasticly start leaning back or forward at the peak of a perfect jump.

This makes total sense to me, in my experience dirt jumping the only time I ever leant forward was just after a takeoff, and the only time I ever leant back was before I was about to nosedive into a landing (not crash, just steep landings in dirt jumping sometimes).
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 09:46:45 AM
In mx simulator yes you can move forward and back like crazy and they call it the best mx sim ever. I played that game for a while but I just don't feel the realism. In mxs you can always correct your bike mid air by just rocking the stick back or forward and the rider will just slide back and fort on the bike's seat very quickly. Thank goodness mxb is here. By the way I am not a mx or sx rider but I did ride enduros back in the day. So I guess I have my fair share of seat time with a real bike.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Ruubs on April 01, 2017, 10:36:25 AM
Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 08:41:55 AM
What went wrong? Was my landing so bad?

check this video out. thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVzRBjinZzE&feature=youtu.be
That's the landing on back wheel bug I talked about earlier. Annoying, isn't it? :-\
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: HornetMaX on April 01, 2017, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 03:47:16 AM
in real life, in mid air, you can't lean forward without pulling the handlebars back. If you are on the ground or shall we say stand still, then you can lean forward or back without pulling or pushing the fron end. This is not a bug. This not a mistake either. This just how it would have to.
+1 for the above.

Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 03:47:16 AM
The rear brake tap however could use a little bit more effect when looping out and of course the auto clutch is horible. When you use your rear brake, whether mid air or on the ground, automatic the clutch is held until you hit the throttle again coz your bike will continue to run freewheel. Looping out could be compensated by tapping the rear brake (of course everyone knows) but the bike always goes clutch-engage and lose engine braking.
Just use manual clutch no ?

Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 08:41:55 AM
What went wrong? Was my landing so bad?

check this video out. thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVzRBjinZzE&feature=youtu.be
Landing hard on the rear, suspension bottoming out, force impulse being transmitted to the rider, rider legs/arm springs not soaking it up enough ==> rider "core" sees an instant g force above its max threshold and separates from the bike. That what I'd put my money on, if really obliged to :)


Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 04:24:01 PM
Thanks for the reply hornet. I use automatic clutching as I don't have an extra trigger to bind it with for gradual release and pull.


I see for the landing, it was just probably a bit hard on the rear but it wasn't just noticeable on the screen. As you can see I had a decent airtime in that last jump. Thanks man!
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: NORCAL on April 01, 2017, 05:42:39 PM
I decided to ride in 3rd person to watch the rider movement, and noticed something that could be making it tough to muscle the front end down. Even with my F/B liniarity at 200, the F/B movement seems to be pretty slow, which would make it tough to time while jumping and give less effect to that motion. It seems like steering is linear, but L/R lean and F/B are a much slower rate. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: teeds on April 04, 2017, 11:15:41 AM
Quote from: Sandbiter on April 01, 2017, 10:36:25 AM
Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 08:41:55 AM
What went wrong? Was my landing so bad?

check this video out. thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVzRBjinZzE&feature=youtu.be
That's the landing on back wheel bug I talked about earlier. Annoying, isn't it? :-\

Indeed it is. Started riding on Winchester yesterday and this rear wheel landing bug seemed to happen lots on the first jump our of the pits. Simply landing with the rear wheel lower than the front on a down slope had me crash more often than not. So switched to the stock MSM 250XF and no matter how hard I tried it would not do the same, so it seems like it's just the MOD bikes or at least some of them. Is this known and understood?

Also the stock tyres on this track seemed better to me, easier to power slide, especially on off camber turns.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on April 04, 2017, 11:30:19 AM
I can "rear bug dismount" the MSM just fine. And there are 2 different issues with dismounting when you land - one that only happens on hard landings even standing, and one that can happen on any landing (including 40cm high jump landings) when sitting at the back and landing on the back wheel. As far as I know, there is no way to prevent this (bike construction, riding technique, bike setup or whatever). It just happens.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on April 04, 2017, 12:05:13 PM
I can get the msm to do it too. When I huck too big and overshoot a landing, it's instinctive to lean forward and give it gas before landing to try and land as rear wheel first as possible to absorb the impact. That's when I get ejected on all bikes :(
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: teeds on April 04, 2017, 12:38:35 PM
I can understand it if it only happens when you send it and flat land from a big jump, that's to be expected to some degree IRL, a human can only take so much impact. It's only the landing without overshooting on a down slope with the rear wheel down that's annoying me. I will try again tonight but yesterday I could not get the example I mentioned on Winchester to occur on the stock 250 at all and I had the rear wheel way down. With an MX2 OEM bike it seemed that with even a sniff of rear down on the same jump I was off, haven't tried any others yet.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on April 04, 2017, 12:43:49 PM
I guess I should have explained a bit more but was on my phone.. It was the only situation that I thought was easily describeable, it also happens if I don't overshoot and do it. Hell, I can be coming down the hill at Paleta (after the step up, 180 corner) at a relitively low speed, dip the back wheel too much and I'll instantly come off.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Wedgewood on April 04, 2017, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 01, 2017, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 03:47:16 AM
in real life, in mid air, you can't lean forward without pulling the handlebars back. If you are on the ground or shall we say stand still, then you can lean forward or back without pulling or pushing the fron end. This is not a bug. This not a mistake either. This just how it would have to.
+1 for the above.

Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 03:47:16 AM
The rear brake tap however could use a little bit more effect when looping out and of course the auto clutch is horible. When you use your rear brake, whether mid air or on the ground, automatic the clutch is held until you hit the throttle again coz your bike will continue to run freewheel. Looping out could be compensated by tapping the rear brake (of course everyone knows) but the bike always goes clutch-engage and lose engine braking.
Just use manual clutch no ?

Quote from: Bj Slice on April 01, 2017, 08:41:55 AM
What went wrong? Was my landing so bad?

check this video out. thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVzRBjinZzE&feature=youtu.be
Landing hard on the rear, suspension bottoming out, force impulse being transmitted to the rider, rider legs/arm springs not soaking it up enough ==> rider "core" sees an instant g force above its max threshold and separates from the bike. That what I'd put my money on, if really obliged to :)


That seems to be the case but the rider really should ragdoll on top of the bike but still land with the wheels rolling, also when the rider falls it shouldn't automatically remove all grip from the bike.  Maybe a proper reaction would be for the rider to splat on top the the tank maybe hit his head on the bars,  hands and feet slip off of he controls, the bike continue to roll forward unable to get rider inputs for few seconds as the rider repositions himself.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Wedgewood on April 04, 2017, 02:33:29 PM
Quote from: NORCAL on April 01, 2017, 05:42:39 PM
I decided to ride in 3rd person to watch the rider movement, and noticed something that could be making it tough to muscle the front end down. Even with my F/B liniarity at 200, the F/B movement seems to be pretty slow, which would make it tough to time while jumping and give less effect to that motion. It seems like steering is linear, but L/R lean and F/B are a much slower rate. Any thoughts?

If you play with the controls.txt doc you can map rider lean to happen faster and with less stick movement even when the settings screen won't allow it.  I've done this before to have L/R and F/B lean max out at just half stick deflection and also significantly sped up the inputs.  This made a huge difference to control, but when certain settings are changed it will overwrite these custom settings back to default.  I've since forgot which parameters I had to change to get the effect but with a little trial and error it shouldn't be hard to figure out. 

Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on April 04, 2017, 06:24:10 PM
Regarding the dismount bug, and the potential differences between mod bikes and stock - I'd be really interested if anyone had some "hard" data on that. Like Bike X does it 4x more often than MSM. While I do not think it's related to suspensions bottoming out directly (or in general actual bike geometry), there is a good possibility that it's coming from the bike / rider or bike / bike collision boxes coming in contact at a certain speed or angle. That we can move and see if it changes anything (it's in the .geom file iirc). I wouldn't be surprised if it was the wheel collision meeting the fender collision or fender / rider for example.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: teeds on April 04, 2017, 06:25:56 PM
If I get anything worth showing i'll make a vid of it now I've found what seems to be high failure point.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 05, 2017, 04:28:24 AM
Here is another short replay for rear wheel issue.

It should've been a better landing.

Anyway, please watch let's see what you guys say. Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fRtpmrfN3I&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on April 05, 2017, 08:20:05 AM
Exactly this BJ, it was a hard landing, overshot a bit, but nothing a little back wheel first shouldn't fix. I've overshot that landing quite a few times and stayed on.

Further more, people who come up short on laroccos leap crash badly, I've come up short plenty of times on mxb and it's never caused a crash. You can land some insane stuff as long as both wheels come down at the same time.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 05, 2017, 08:45:01 AM
It could have been a hard landing if it was flat, but there was still a slope and I got forward momentum so I should have just landed it safely. Plus the jump was not too high compared to my last video. I have landed on that spot many times without crashing but it's just so weird when you have your rear wheel to land first.I have 2 more replays but it will make no differnce as I have the same results so why bother posting them right? Anyway, I hope landing gets better. irl you can land this kind of jump even though the wheels are not so even at ground contact.

Perfect example are these videos for this topic

https://youtu.be/hGw4BUxRkXY
https://youtu.be/6qSY42Zb0lg
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on April 05, 2017, 10:36:54 AM
That first video also demonstrates how leaning forward dips the back end nicely ;D
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: teeds on April 05, 2017, 12:53:24 PM
Quote from: TFC on April 05, 2017, 10:36:54 AM
That first video also demonstrates how leaning forward dips the back end nicely ;D

I don't see that TFC? You can see he starts the jump nose up and then lets off the throttle and pulls the clutch, then hits the rear brake to bring the nose down so he can rev the bike again for the landing, so he can be on the power when the rear wheel contacts the dirt again (which helps reduce the impact). He didn't lean forward or back, it just looks that way due the bike moving.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on April 05, 2017, 02:13:06 PM
Quote from: teeds on April 05, 2017, 12:53:24 PM
Quote from: TFC on April 05, 2017, 10:36:54 AM
That first video also demonstrates how leaning forward dips the back end nicely ;D

I don't see that TFC? You can see he starts the jump nose up and then lets off the throttle and pulls the clutch, then hits the rear brake to bring the nose down so he can rev the bike again for the landing, so he can be on the power when the rear wheel contacts the dirt again (which helps reduce the impact). He didn't lean forward or back, it just looks that way due the bike moving.

And you have to do the same in MXB to get the same result.. Just leaning forward and backward without gassing or braking doesn't do nearly as much as leaning appropriately with brake / throttle and a good trajectory like in the video.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on April 05, 2017, 05:08:27 PM
Exactly geo. If a camera was fixed to a pole from the side of a bike facing the rider, it would appear that the rider is leaning forward and backward, where in fact while the rider is leaning, it's more of a natural balancing act, 2nd nature to stay upright.

Since mxb doesn't do this, and might never, it's up to us to simulate it. I find it becomes 2nd nature though, don't really give it a second thought.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: CSchmied986 on April 06, 2017, 12:17:27 AM
Most people do not understand is that when you hit the break/ throttle in the air, you are actually effecting the front wheel very little. Hitting the rear break in the air does not bring the front end down, it bring the rear end up, and the opposite goes for the throttle.

Also, what is up with the effects of tyre compounds? Going from Hard to Soft makes the bike feel like you're riding in quick sand. It costs a ton of power which is far from realistic. Compounds are supposed to improve traction depending on the track surface, but in game it will let you corner better on any track, but makes it feel like you are riding with a blown top end in a straight line. The tyres could not weigh more than several ounces different, so the soft should be faster in a straight line, not slower. Something wrong there.  ???
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on April 06, 2017, 12:28:00 AM
Quote from: NorCal 986 on April 06, 2017, 12:17:27 AM
Most people do not understand is that when you hit the break/ throttle in the air, you are actually effecting the front wheel very little. Hitting the rear break in the air does not bring the front end down, it bring the rear end up, and the opposite goes for the throttle.

So if I hit rear break then front brake then rear brake I'll reach the moon? No, hitting the rear brakes makes the front end go down.

QuoteAlso, what is up with the effects of tyre compounds? Going from Hard to Soft makes the bike feel like you're riding in quick sand. It costs a ton of power which is far from realistic. Compounds are supposed to improve traction depending on the track surface, but in game it will let you corner better on any track, but makes it feel like you are riding with a blown top end in a straight line. The tyres could not weigh more than several ounces different, so the soft should be faster in a straight line, not slower. Something wrong there.  ???
I think it's just a temporary solution until Geo figures out better what every little value does and we can start looking into adding different tyre shapes etc. And the roll resistance doesn't have that much to do with the weight of the tyre, much more with the pattern and compound. For now, trading traction for "power" seems like an ok compromise.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 06, 2017, 12:44:48 AM
Simple as kinetic energy of a spinning wheel is being transferred to the whole bike through the bite of the rear brake and anything that connects to it, thus makes the rotation of the whole bike to the direction of the spin of the wheel. If the wheel does not have enough spin, the bike, as a whole won't rotate.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: CSchmied986 on April 06, 2017, 02:24:01 AM
Quote from: Asdrael on April 06, 2017, 12:28:00 AM
Quote from: NorCal 986 on April 06, 2017, 12:17:27 AM
Most people do not understand is that when you hit the break/ throttle in the air, you are actually effecting the front wheel very little. Hitting the rear break in the air does not bring the front end down, it bring the rear end up, and the opposite goes for the throttle.

"So if I hit rear break then front brake then rear brake I'll reach the moon? No, hitting the rear brakes makes the front end go down."

Can you use actual physics to explain your theory? From studying physics, and learning about torque, angular momentum, and Newton's Second Law, I'm just having a hard time understanding how torque and angular momentum around the center of gravity of spinning mass would effect another object (front wheel) instead of altering the angular momentum of the object which is creating the energy.  ??? Unless it is some sort of theoretical Quantum effect that I just don't understand.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Bj Slice on April 06, 2017, 02:41:59 AM
Regarding the rear brake tap and its effect to the front and rear end, it's not a question of whether the front or rear is raising or dipping, cause it does both. It's a question however of how much it raise and how much it lowers depending on the bikes angle when you jump. The rear wheel is the center of rotation, but it is not hard-mounted to anything, thus is still subject to rotation because the front and the rear wheels are mounted on a chassis and the swingarm. Imagine a see-saw but not mounted. They move up or down or only the front is lowering but how it would look like would depend on how you see it perspective-wised.

Anyway, I noticed that the pit board info (your position and timing) are not for the current lap. it is from the previous lap. Another thing about it is that the pit board comes out before or after the finish line (way after). Is this known? Thanks!
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: CSchmied986 on April 06, 2017, 03:47:30 AM
Quote from: Bj Slice on April 06, 2017, 02:41:59 AM

Anyway, I noticed that the pit board info (your position and timing) are not for the current lap. it is from the previous lap. Another thing about it is that the pit board comes out before or after the finish line (way after). Is this known? Thanks!

Ya, it is to simulate real life, so the thought is that your mechanic can't give you your laptime until you go by him on the next lap, and the weird placement of the lap board is because that is the designated 'mechanic area'. But ya, I'm not a huge fan of it either, and for many people it makes it confusing on where the actual finish line even is.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: HornetMaX on April 06, 2017, 09:47:14 AM
Quote from: NorCal 986 on April 06, 2017, 02:24:01 AM
Quote from: Asdrael on April 06, 2017, 12:28:00 AM
Quote from: NorCal 986 on April 06, 2017, 12:17:27 AM
Most people do not understand is that when you hit the break/ throttle in the air, you are actually effecting the front wheel very little. Hitting the rear break in the air does not bring the front end down, it bring the rear end up, and the opposite goes for the throttle.

"So if I hit rear break then front brake then rear brake I'll reach the moon? No, hitting the rear brakes makes the front end go down."
Can you use actual physics to explain your theory? From studying physics, and learning about torque, angular momentum, and Newton's Second Law, I'm just having a hard time understanding how torque and angular momentum around the center of gravity of spinning mass would effect another object (front wheel) instead of altering the angular momentum of the object which is creating the energy.  ??? Unless it is some sort of theoretical Quantum effect that I just don't understand.
No quantum effect, it's called angular momentum conservation.

Idealized situation (to keep it very simple): bike flying forward at constant speed, perfectly horizontal, rear wheel spinning.

The angular momentum of the entire bike (relative to the rear wheel axle) is given by the rear wheel inertia (along its rotation axis) times its angular speed, as the rest of the bike is not rotating relatively to the rear wheel axle.
When you hit the rear brake, the angular speed of the rear wheel will go down, so its angular momentum too. For the total angular momentum to stay constant, something else must start rotating and the only option is that the bike starts rotating around the rear wheel axle. Its rotation speed depends on the initial total angular momentum, on how much the rear wheel slows down and on the "bike minus rear wheel" inertia around the rear wheel axle.

The heavier the rear wheel the more the effect is noticeable. The heavier the bike (minus rear wheel) the less the effect is noticeable.

If you want an easier way to visualize this (guess Asdrael will call this the TL/DR version :) ): when you hit the brake the pads squeeze the disc and that generates friction, i.e. a force that tries to slow down the wheel. By reaction, an equal and opposite force will try to "accelerate" the brake caliper, to drag it along with the disc rotation. As the caliper is tied to the swingarm (itself tied to the bike frame), the bike will start rotating around the rear wheel axle, as in the air the bike is not supported by anything.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: teeds on April 06, 2017, 10:33:45 AM
Quote from: geofanatec on April 06, 2017, 01:03:18 AM
The softer compounds do have more grip than the hard compounds that is on OEM models? So not sure why you think/say this?

This bugged me at for ages but pretty sure it's not representing compound in MXB (although they are different). A Soft tyre in MX is for soft ground, the nobbles are more spaced but the rubber is a harder compound. Hard tyres are for hard surfaces they have more of a contact patch with less space between the nobbles for a bigger contact patch but would be a softer compound.

http://www.motosport.com/blog/the-difference-between-soft-intermediate-and-hard-terrain-dirt-bike-tires

I wondered why you were describing the tyres with rolling resistance due to compound  :o
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: teeds on April 06, 2017, 02:37:08 PM
Quote from: geofanatec on April 06, 2017, 01:03:18 AM
A softer tyre may grip better (and does), BUT because it is softer and does grip better you have more surface area contacting the ground.........thus more resistance :)

Probably should have included this line in the quote above.

A soft tyre with MX tyres does not have a bigger contact patch, a hard tyre does.

I have asked before ages ago but got no response from Piboso about what exactly the tyre names represent, but I find it hard to believe he would use rubber compounds and not the real world meaning. Might be why i didn't get an answer as it's obvious? But If i'm correct about this your "Goes" tyres are probably going in the wrong direction and might explain why i'm finding them terrible compared to the stock ones on certain surfaces.

Can you show any real world info about rolling resistance with dirt bike tyres? I'm sure it exists technically but isn't something I've ever heard mentioned or have read about as I suspect it's negligible.

Need to clarify this.....
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on April 06, 2017, 02:55:16 PM
If you take one example out of Piboso tires -
"Hard" has significantly more grip on compact, soil and soft than "Soft" tyres. Less on sand. They have the same roll resistance. On certain surface, they will present a better grip overall than Geo tyres (in particular when wet and on sand).

As for Geo Tyres, the grip <-> roll resistance balance was just a temporary solution while trying to get a clue how the rest works as far as I know. I think he's now coming out with much better bike behaviour now, a few more tweaks and I think it'll be time to properly move to surface specific tyres, hopefully keeping the roll resistance rather low. Ideally, we'd have 5 or so different "surfaces" tyres to chose from (from soft soil to hard packed), and 2 different width at least for the rear - which will in that case give grip at the cost of "power" (or more resistance). Would seem like the right way to go, and pretty close to how stuff works IRL. There is no way currently to space out the pattern to prevent dirt jamming etc as far as I know.

And yeah, real tyres roll resistance is kinda low - the problem is the surface roll resistance. Sand being obviously more resistant than asphalt, etc.
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: Asdrael on April 06, 2017, 03:29:15 PM
Quote from: geofanatec on April 06, 2017, 03:14:33 PMNow, there is only 1 item in the "magic formula" that I have not messed with yet. It is q_sy1 and is the only value in the formula that changes from hard to soft. So I don't know if this has anything to do with knob spacing or what? Would love to know, but thre could be something there.

If PiBoSo follows the Matlab package implementation names, Qsy1 is the Rolling resistance torque.

I have got an idea to make the transition from the current Geo Tyre to a v2.0 with surface tyre choices being the pivotal choice (instead of a tentative compound softness). I'll move this to the GeoTyre thread because I'm losing hope for bug reports here now :p
Title: Re: beta6 bug list
Post by: HornetMaX on April 06, 2017, 08:39:04 PM
Quote from: Asdrael on April 06, 2017, 03:29:15 PM
Quote from: geofanatec on April 06, 2017, 03:14:33 PMNow, there is only 1 item in the "magic formula" that I have not messed with yet. It is q_sy1 and is the only value in the formula that changes from hard to soft. So I don't know if this has anything to do with knob spacing or what? Would love to know, but thre could be something there.

If PiBoSo follows the Matlab package implementation names, Qsy1 is the Rolling resistance torque.
Very likely, that's what's in Pacejka's book (Tire and Vehicle Dynamics, 2nd edition, there's a 3rd out now) which PiBoSo follows AFAIK.

It's not a torque by itself, more of a coefficient, a % if you want. The book says it's "typically 1-2%", but at the same time the book mostly deals with cars' tyres and I can't grant this translates well to bike's tyre (or even less to mx tyres). At any rate, if you have it at 0.5 (50%) that would make my eyebrow rise :)

Personally that's not the 1st parameter I'd play with, especially if we don't know how it relates to soil type.