MX Bikes Official Forum

Mods => Bikes => Topic started by: Asdrael on March 25, 2017, 02:16:11 PM

Title: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 25, 2017, 02:16:11 PM
Hey,

Yeah, so, erm, I know I said I wasn't going to do all bikes as OEM but it turns out I did. Blame the shitty weather and boredom. As far as I know, there are no major flukes in the OEM bikes. All have been done the same way, following manufacturer's data, and have been out for some time now. A few things have been done following my own judgment (450f engine inertia and braking torque, 2 strokes engines, some chassis value for data missing here and there), but I would say nothing major.

Most importantly, I think every OEM in every category is competitive (except 2 strokes vs 4 strokes but that's realistic I guess). I can take any 250f and run 1:09 in SX2016Rd01, which is decent. To go lower, I need to find "my" bike and work on it, which is the way it should be I think.

I know from some people I have talked to that they stick to OEM bikes now (much love guys <3). But after some time playing them, what's your feedback in general?

- Does anything seem completly out or wierd?
- Any bike stupidly more / less competitive than other in your view, and if so, how?
- Have you found stuff that should be included that I overlooked?
- Have you had the chance to ride any bike in a comparative way IRL and any realism comments?
etc etc.

(for now, OEM are going to stay in their own category because of 1. tyres, and 2. making it easier for server and race hosts to select which kind of bikes they want).
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: GDUBMX on March 25, 2017, 02:56:01 PM
To be honest mate, im probably not the best when it comes to giving technical feedback.

However, from my experience i find the OEMs to feel far superior and i personally haven't rode the other bikes since you started these OEM models, i even have a snobbery now where i wont actually join a server that is not running OEMs.

Thanks for your hard work mate and dont forget to keep checking your coffee addiction fund ;)
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: CSchmied986 on March 25, 2017, 04:50:37 PM
In my opinion, I really dont notice much of a difference between OEM and Standard, but I love the engine mapping for OEM. Personally I think we should ditch the Standard bikes and only have OEM, which would also greatly reduce the files needed to download, and probably some confusion as well.
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on March 25, 2017, 04:56:41 PM
I can only tell the difference between the very first OEM bike you did. After that, I've never gone back so I can't tell you if the current ones are better / worse / stack up. I use nothing but the OEM bikes now, if the only difference is the tyres well then it's an easy switch, if the differences are vast then it's a no brainer ;)
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: CSchmied986 on March 25, 2017, 05:24:26 PM
Vote to discard the Standard bikes, and only have OEM?  ???
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: GDUBMX on March 25, 2017, 05:40:07 PM
Honestly, is there any point to them anymore? Who would prefer a non replica over a replica? Get rid of them all together, after all this is a simulation and the only things those bikes simulate is the look of it only
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 25, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far.

Just to clarify:

When I do standard bikes, they have the same geometry and suspensions as the OEM. They use the same engine, weight, brakes etc as the MSM however.

The OEM bikes have on top of the standard and all according to manufacturer specs:
... and geo's tyres. The 250f OEM engines are not that far from the MSM, but for the 450f there are major differences. So riding the exact same bike standard and OEM as 250 will not be a huge difference (with hard/hard tyres). 450f is another story.

The standard are a remnant of when customs engine where appearing for random bikes, making a competitive series unrealistic and we thus decided to stick the MSM engine on all until we figured out how it works.

I have no problem ditching standard bikes, they are just one extra save on the way of making a model to OEM specs basically. But I'm still holding on different category.


Now I see people often have their brand and they stick to it. Why not. But I urge you to try the different brands because they do ride differently, chassis and engine working together. And try the 450f if you haven't, I think that brand differences are even more drastic there. And don't hesitate to question how I did stuff (as in, challenge how I did it) because I probably made mistakes but I can't figure them out alone now.

Quote from: GDUBMX on March 25, 2017, 02:56:01 PMThanks for your hard work mate and dont forget to keep checking your coffee addiction fund ;)
Thanks a lot mate, very kind of you. Coffee power +1
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Teebs on March 25, 2017, 08:55:09 PM
hi everybody I'm new to this game and I just started figuring out how to get these mods to work in game but I'm having trouble with the oem bikes. When I put the oem model bike into the bikes folder it doesn't show up in game but the stock models do. If someone could help me figure out what I might be doing wrong that would be great thanks
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 25, 2017, 09:04:48 PM
Quote from: Teebs on March 25, 2017, 08:55:09 PM
hi everybody I'm new to this game and I just started figuring out how to get these mods to work in game but I'm having trouble with the oem bikes. When I put the oem model bike into the bikes folder it doesn't show up in game but the stock models do. If someone could help me figure out what I might be doing wrong that would be great thanks

You need Geo's Tyres Mod ( http://forum.mx-bikes.com/index.php?topic=1451.0 ) to have the bike show up in game and pick MX1 OEM or MX2 OEM as category. Or alternatively follow the OneStopSync solution http://forum.mx-bikes.com/index.php?topic=1576.0 .
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Teebs on March 25, 2017, 10:50:41 PM
Yea I just found your post from earlier and I figured it out. thanks a lot for helping much appriciated
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Paradox28 on March 26, 2017, 05:25:48 AM
OEM is all I ride..the other bikes just don't feel comfortable to me
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Vortex_Damien on March 26, 2017, 06:56:39 AM
agreed i dont see a point in the other bikes
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Bj Slice on March 26, 2017, 10:20:16 PM
I like the OEM bikes in terms of feel and I can say they each have their own character. Thanks for the great effort you put out into making all these stuffs Asdrael and to others who help you made this possible. I am enjoying the game more than I enjoyed MXS the first day I had it. Tbh that game helped me a lot into being able to pick up the game's physics rather quickly. I am excited about this game's growth. Thanks man!
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 27, 2017, 01:44:51 AM
Thanks again  ;)

Some people have reported that the 450f might have excessive eingine braking, in particular at low speed and entering corners, causing the rear end to swing uncontrolably. Thoughts/comparison to real life? Never rode a 450 4 stroke mono.

(reminder: 450f OEM have 20% more engine inertia than MSM and approx 20% more braking torque)
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: CSchmied986 on March 27, 2017, 03:37:28 AM
I dont think it is too much engine braking, but rather just a lack of grip. Not sure if the 250 and 450 have the same rear tire, but they shouldnt.
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 27, 2017, 09:02:00 AM
Quote from: NorCal 986 on March 27, 2017, 03:37:28 AM
Not sure if the 250 and 450 have the same rear tire, but they shouldnt.

All OEM bikes have the same tyres. Actually, a good test to know if something comes from the engine side is to ride the Huskies. Strictly the same geometry, except 1kg more and center of gravity a few cm lower for the 450f. And why shouldn't they have the rear tyre? Because of the width? I'm not sure how we can get that in the tyre file. It might be a small change in springrate and grip, but I think there is still more to do currently with bikes and tyres overall that starting to divide things. Plus, not sure we want to keep up with all that shit :p (Edit: just double checked, the current geo rear tyre "width" is the same as default with r = 55mm. Which is a 450f rear width, a current classical mod on 250f bikes).

I will investigate on the 450f engine and run some tests. I might have went overboard increasing both inertia and braking torque. It might take a few days as I have a busy week, so if the 450 really feels like poop for some of you... well ride the 250  ;D

The good news is that in the meanwhile, we seem to have found "the" value to change in the tyres to allow for a more controllable rear without increasing traction (actually, a net loss in grip giving a better and somewhat faster bike).
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: HornetMaX on March 27, 2017, 07:36:58 PM
Quote from: Asdrael on March 27, 2017, 09:02:00 AM
And why shouldn't they have the rear tyre? Because of the width? I'm not sure how we can get that in the tyre file.
Tyre width is easy to put in game, you need to play with the parameters Radius, TorusRadius and Width. Width is an angle in fact, half-angle of the tyre profile (assumed circular).

(http://i.imgur.com/eMvK9IS.png)

For the rest (tyre properties difference between 250 and 450) you're on your own :)

P.S.
Not sure, maybe you were all already ware of that I'm being Cpt.Obvious here ... but I'll take the risk :)
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 27, 2017, 07:56:26 PM
Thanks Max, I had it figured out but it never hurts to have confirmation. The difference between 250f and 450f is a slightly broader tyre for 450f, which is often compensated by people mounting a 450f rear on a 250f. I think the "width" stays the same but the Torys Radius is slightly bigger (2.15" vs 1.9").

imo, let's see how good we can make "a" tyre work, then we'll think about making "tyres" work. I have some ideas with different brand and models giving different properties but we are still far off. Or, are we... ;)
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: HornetMaX on March 27, 2017, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: geofanatec on March 27, 2017, 08:01:56 PM
^ That and well.......we need selectable tyres as it is a pain in ass right now having to duplicate things
Isn't that already doable ?
It would be enough to add all Piboso's standard tyres to your tyre set and name them accordingly (like Pib soft, Pib med, ... Geo Soft, Geo med, ...).

So in geo_p_mx.cfg you can probably refrence PiBoSo's tyres and you're done.

Not tried and not ideal, but it should work no?
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 27, 2017, 08:10:51 PM
I haven't tried, but I m pretty sure we can expand the selection to more than 4. The thing is tho, you don't want to mix PiBoSo tyres with geo's because of the wet vs dry grip thing.

But in theory we could have thinner, hardpack, pure sand tyres etc already. I just don't think the base we currently have is good enough to start adding this kind of variety (sorry geo).
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 27, 2017, 10:24:24 PM
Ok so rolling out a general update on all 450f OEM. All engine braking torque back to MSM values (~20% lower).

The reason is, the rear sometimes decided to just buzz off and go its own way when braking / cornering at low speeds. There was no bringing it back. Apparently, I went overboard when increasing both inertia and engine braking (actually I increased engine braking first, then inertia, and never tried inertia increase without engine braking increase. My bad!). I suppose it put the rear wheel in slide mode and there was not enough lateral grip to bring it back. Changing the grip was no option (as the 250f work well and more grip made the 450f wheelie land).

I think the 450s is now lacking a bit of engine braking, but at least you can push them and not break your controller when you get random spins out. Feedback welcome, it's one of the last part remaining where it's completly subjective and I have no real data to work with.

Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: loinen on March 28, 2017, 07:26:45 AM
I'm a 450f MSM rider since first betas and here is my unpretentious opinion after 2 serious rides on OEM 450 bikes (husky mostly and few others). I was confused with OEMs on first try - they felt more random to me, less predictable but having more grip while sliding the rear end, whipping also seemed a bit different - dunno why, maybe weight or dynamics was the reason. Wasn't be able to be stable making consistent laps and scrubs without falling. After some practice and playing with setups I feel fine but still unsure about my stability with them. I cant say whether OEMs are worse or better than standard, they are really different, maybe more agressive or something, MSM feels little 'softer' to me in terms of character. Maybe I'm wrong, too fixed on MSM still and need to get used. I'll tell more later, with new experience.
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: HornetMaX on March 28, 2017, 08:32:39 AM
Quote from: geofanatec on March 28, 2017, 02:09:47 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 27, 2017, 07:36:58 PM
Width is an angle in fact, half-angle of the tyre profile.

Hmm.......then why do default Rear Tyres have a width (angle) of 75 and front 85??

Seems backwards :o
If you check the torus radius too you'll probably find the width (in mm) to be bigger at the rear (can't check now, don't have the files at hand).

Width[mm] = TorusRadius[mm] * 2 * sin(Width[angle])
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 28, 2017, 01:53:15 PM
Thanks Loinen for the feedback. 450 OEM are a bit more tractor-ish and less forgiving than the MSM, which comes from a mix of engine, chassis and weight differences. The main problem is that the geometry and weight distribution gave those more grip, but not always interacting in a good way with the engine as it was - and not with scrubbing for sure. I think the update rolled out yesterday on the 450 OEM removes a bit of that tractor feeling in a good way, and there might be another update very soon of the tyres that fixes the remaining problems.


So about tyres - MX tyres are broader but flatter on the rear than the front (even disregarding nipples orientation). That's why "width" as defined in the tyre files is lower on the rear - what you'd actually call width is indeed larger, but to get it you need to use Max's formula. 75 and 85 seem about right but it's tough to say and measure, once again given the orientation of the nipples. If my calculations are somewhat ok, the tyres we have now are more or less the right shape (I say more or less because I'm not sure how the orientation of the pattern and its thickness is taken into account - and not sure if MXB values for tyres are on the tyre or on the nipple surface).

I'd say that once the values we have found to have a dramatic effect on the tyre are set, we can start looking into the other stuff. Not sure if worth though, because thinner tyres are mostly made to fit into ruts better and dig differently in looser surfaces, and terrain deformation for grip is actually not taken into account (afaik).
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Paradox28 on March 28, 2017, 07:25:55 PM
I kind of like the feeling of the Yamaha with the engine braking more than now.  Seems like before I could rail berms and now it wants to pull over the berm more.  As always, I'm not a super pro rider so thats feedback from a maybe slightly above average rider.  The same weird spinouts I would get frustrated with before happen now and I only attribute it to a severely rutted out track with a lack of grip in certain turns. 
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on March 28, 2017, 07:47:44 PM
Quote from: Paradox28 on March 28, 2017, 07:25:55 PM
I kind of like the feeling of the Yamaha with the engine braking more than now...

Thanks for this. Engine braking changes are supposed to go hand in hand with a tyre update coming "soon" (TM) to have their full effect. I still think it's slightly better now but I agree - it does feel overpowering a bit when directly switching because of how the rear tries to push the front (for a lack of better explanation), and now rolling the throttle lets the engine a bit more lose. Land of compromises here :/ (also, the Yamaha was the bike with the least issues with engine braking due to its power curve).
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Bj Slice on April 16, 2017, 01:09:17 AM
Hey asd, I notice that the rmz 450 2016 oem's clutch and brake cables are getting rusty overtime as opposed to just getting dirty, including the tank vent and the tank cap. Also, the crf450 2017 OEM is not getting dirty at all even after 5 laps or so. Are thiese known? thanks!
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Paradox28 on April 16, 2017, 03:13:48 AM
I wish we had some of that engine braking back :(
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on April 16, 2017, 12:38:47 PM
Quote from: Bj Slice on April 16, 2017, 01:09:17 AM
Hey asd, I notice that the rmz 450 2016 oem's clutch and brake cables are getting rusty overtime as opposed to just getting dirty, including the tank vent and the tank cap. Also, the crf450 2017 OEM is not getting dirty at all even after 5 laps or so. Are thiese known? thanks!

I have done the dirt maps, they are done by the model builder. But yes, the RMZ is weird and the CRF stays clean for now - until someone comes up with updated dirt maps.

Quote from: Paradox28 on April 16, 2017, 03:13:48 AM
I wish we had some of that engine braking back :(

Me too (somehow). But it just doesn't work that well now, the rear gets really unpredictable :/
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on May 02, 2017, 12:41:30 AM
Tiny bit of a bump. If anyone has more feedback (especially now with the surface specific geo tyres), I'll take it. Might have some time soon to have another look into OEM bikes.
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Paradox28 on May 02, 2017, 06:21:21 AM
I know I'm the lone wolf and don't mean it in a negative way but I feel like the aggressiveness has taken steps back since the 1.5 tire update and the move away from engine braking on the bikes.  Take that for what its worth. 
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Bj Slice on May 02, 2017, 06:49:44 AM
250 is much faster in tracks for the most part.  The power band of the 450 is for me great at this point, the problem I see is stopping it specially on corners is  way difficult than the 250. Given the 450 has more weight, it should have more grip than the 250 thus it will be faster on corners.  I can be more confident taking corners on a 250 than on a 450 as there is always a great chance on a 450 to slide out the rear tire (I'm talking about just using the engine brake and front brake  going on a corner) not on exit as throttle control will always be the factor because of power difference between the two displacements. I don't know if it is the tires or the bike itself that's making the 450 difficult to ride on corners. Just my thought. Thanks!
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on May 08, 2017, 06:19:30 PM
Looked at it again, not much I can do regarding 450s. The feeling of not being able to control the 450 once it starts spinning is either due to the "braking torque" curve being wrong (currently is the MSM one), but I tried changing it - it remains a trade-off I'm not comfortable with ; or tyres, but I can't seem to locate what needs changing. It's most likely in the magic formula numbers but that's too deep for me :p The only solution is to split the OEM tyres between 250 and 450, but that's a major endeavour that I don't think is worth it currently, given the admitedly beta stage of "grip physics". I'd rather see what PiBoSo comes up with next beta and look at it again.

(If someone know what to look at please tell me. It feels like tyre grip follows an hysteresis loop, and the difference between "grip loss" and "grip regained" is way too big).

For what it's worth - I'm faster on the 450 than on the 250 on every track. I'm less consistent though. I'd say the 250 requires charging it and is forgiving, the 450 requires more control. 

Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Bj Slice on May 08, 2017, 06:46:55 PM
Quote from: Asdrael on May 08, 2017, 06:19:30 PM
The only solution is to split the OEM tyres between 250 and 450, but that's a major endeavour that I don't think is worth it currently, given the admitedly beta stage of "grip physics". I'd rather see what PiBoSo comes up with next beta and look at it again.

Thanks asd for the effort and time appreciate it. I was also thinking splitting the tyres could be a solution to this but that could be a lot of work. I like the 450 oem, that is the displacement I first rode. although I am a lot faster on a 250 due to a higher corner speed and being able to be consistently hitting the right marks. Well I guess we'll wait for the update of the grip physics hopefully next beta. Great work for the OEM bikes as they have their own character. By the way I like 2 colors for personal preference. green and yellow if I may say. =)
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: BadStar on May 09, 2017, 12:42:19 AM
Yea, proper tyre grip physics will bring this game to a whole new level.. I mean, you can downshift and sometimes the bike will wash out, lol.

#trustpiboso
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Bj Slice on May 11, 2017, 08:58:18 AM
If we can use the full resolution of the controller trigger input it will be awesome. For now, it's like it is only half of the controller trigger range of motion is being used for the entire power band making it somewhat difficult to manage throttle control because there is not much range to work on with the throttle. It could also be the reason why we could say the 450 is over power because throttle would just jump from let's say 30% to a 100% with just a little or no throttle application at all. If we can use the wasted range of the controller trigger, it will be more manageable as you have more motion of the trigger to work on. More input resolution being used, means finer throttle. I do not know if that is changeable or somehow possible or probably would take a lot of work so I am just hoping for this to happen. But if makes the bike handle better then maybe it is worth the effort. Thanks!
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on May 13, 2017, 01:11:41 PM
As the OEM Nationals will be on 450 OEM, and I hear the same issues with the 450 coming up, a few pointers for 450f OEM Outdoors.

- Try reducing linearity on the throttle input (I'm using 75%) so the pad trigger ramps up slower, giving you more control over early power delivery (works with the front brake too if you find yourself locking up too soon).
- Try increasing the rear sprocket tooth number but avoid using 1st gear. Then check your engine mapping (smoother map for hard packed, tighter for soft soil).
- Change up your lines. 250f you need to keep the momentum, 450 you can cut corners and straighten up the bike earlier and compensate going wide open.
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Asdrael on May 27, 2017, 02:10:53 PM
Seen some discussions popping up on other threads about 450s and the KXF being a favorite.

I have no idea why, tbh I don't like it so much. I tried running each 450 exclusively for a week and see what comes out of it, and it appears that each one requires its own setup type to be good with it, then it's a matter of taste. To give you an example: I thought the CRF was "for me", but after playing the RMZ 450 (which is, on paper, the "worse") for a week I shaved 2s a lap on RedBud compared to the CRF, and I'm much more consistent too.

Since some of the OEM stuff is guess work (notably the shock dimensions and weight positioning), it won't be as accurate and comparable as it should be. But tbh, I'm pretty happy with how each bike turned out, knowing they were made without adjustement from riding them.

Some food for thought: the main engine map of each OEM 1 except the 2 strokes. The additional maps just do what they say (usually smoothen the curve, or take a bit of hp at the bottom to put it at the top). Adapted from a variety of sources to have something more or less homegeneous (there is some variability depending on the testing rack and the setting, so I had to compare from 3+ sources each time). Remember that the 350f has less inertia than the 450f.

(https://i.gyazo.com/9ef59b7eb7ef742ab903b5b443f2e0c9.png)
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Bj Slice on May 27, 2017, 06:21:14 PM
I guess choosing a bike would also depend on the track you're racing it with. At Red Bud, I am more consistent with the rmz450 than the Kawi. The yellow bike handled the worse of the track well than the green bike. In FTT, I also like the crf450 (personal opinion) because it handles the track well. At the MXBC v2, I like the kxf450.

So it actually just boils down to which one you like more. Again Asd, you've done a great job making all of them somewhat different front each other. A difference that makes me ride different bikes at different tracks. So when the current MX Series started, I registered the RM-z 450 because it suited for me in most of the tracks I ride. I felt comfortable with it although some of the tracks it gets  a little disadvantage but that's how it should be.


One heck of a job man!
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: 𝖙𝖋𝖈 on May 27, 2017, 07:39:32 PM
It's hard to pin down what I don't like about some of the bikes, as BJ wisely points out some bikes are preferable on other tracks..

What I said in the other thread could just be my preference talking, and that's one reason I haven't posted my thoughts here, as I'm not 100% sure ;)
Title: Re: General OEM feedback
Post by: Bj Slice on May 27, 2017, 07:48:30 PM
Quote from: geofanatec on May 27, 2017, 07:43:15 PM
I am 100% sure the bikes are better than stock (standard versions).

Totally agree!