After trying several things with both stock and modified bikes, I have come to the conclusion that at least the rear shock settings don't work properly, if at all.
All tests done using MaxHUD suspension function with 1% setting for the bottoming out symbol, using stock 450f or several the OEM bikes (to make sure it wasn't a particular geometry causing it - they have the exact same suspension values in the cfg as the stock bikes).
- preload seems to function as it should
- spring rate seems to influence sag, but not as much as expected. Also barely influences compression an rebound behaviour.
- compression and rebound damping settings don't seem to do anything, or so little it is barely noticable.
An easy test is to try all extremes on an outdoor track. You'll bottom out your shock, whatever the setting, on the take off of most jumps. Even running a 60 spring rate and maxed out compression damping. As a test, I also modified the .cfg to double all values, and it still bottoms out.
So there is either an issue with the suspensions not calling the values in the .cfg, the garage not actually applying settings, or the values in the .cfg being way far off what they should be.
Even with the new physics being more playable, I think the physics are still way too buggy to work on setups. I agree with all your points though. The best I've been able to slightly to improve with suspension so far is adjust my preload and spring rate to get a descent sag setup.
i noticed this as well Asdrael, although your analysis is much more in depth :D Piboso what do you make of this?
yeah, you can stiffen up the suspension to the max and still bottom it out on jump faces, is weird.
I've always used max settings except a little less on high-speed compression even before B7. It's the only way to ride!
So... this is starting to bug me more and more.
Anyone can tell me I'm wrong and suspension settings actually work? If they really don't, we need a fix for that - can have all the great suspension model we want, if we can't get a proper setup we won't go far... Bottoming out when gasing, on bumps, landings, jump faces...
Think something wrong with suspension
If it's on a rough surface, yeah that happens.
Quote from: Asdrael on August 01, 2018, 02:31:10 PM
If it's on a rough surface
MX suspension is meant to use all of it's travel:
(http://idlecreations.com/snaps/susp1.gif)
(http://idlecreations.com/snaps/susp2.gif)
(http://idlecreations.com/snaps/susp3.gif)
I know that, thank you.
However, bottoming out the shock on every obstacle and on half the rough spots is not normal, period.
Anyhow, that's not even the point.
THE SUSPENSIONS SETTINGS DONT DO JACK SHIT.
Every preset is the same. Changing the cfg to input stupidly high / low values on the suspensions don't do shit.
Now, I might be in a bad mood but it might be time to actually acknowledge when objective bugs are reported (let alone thank the people taking time to investigate and report). Like the online garage bug. You know, just a "noted". 5 letters. Would do wonders! Until now, we don't even know if it's known, new, intended for some wierd reason, or a stupid issue when you compiled. How do you want us to take you seriously and put any effort in "actively supporting the development"? Right now, you are just encouraging us to say "lol it's shit" and not look back.
Thankyou for taking the time to investigate this. Btw I'm not trying to be condescending, it's just useful to have visual comparison.
Quote from: Asdrael on August 01, 2018, 03:51:36 PM
bottoming out the shock on every obstacle and on half the rough spots is not normal, period.
I'm not disregarding what you say, however I can't replicate it. The suspension settings seem to work as expected for me and I don't see bottoming out on rough spots, even under acceleration.
(http://idlecreations.com/snaps/mxbsusp.gif)
Quote from: Asdrael on August 01, 2018, 03:51:36 PM
Every preset is the same. Changing the cfg to input stupidly high / low values on the suspensions don't do shit.
Well.. I can clearly see the difference between full hard settings and full soft, so I have to disagree with "Every preset is the same".
In the CFG file, "FastBump" is a couple of values and you should change them both. The "BumpThreshold" values make a big difference, too.
Quote from: Asdrael on July 12, 2018, 11:21:18 PM
- spring rate seems to influence sag, but not as much as expected. Also barely influences compression an rebound behaviour.
We tested the spring rate:
48 N/mm spring: 112mm sag
60 N/mm spring: 87mm sag
Do you want more? With just a 20% spring change?
The dampers probably do need more range and more tuning, and that will be done.
We're not saying MXB suspensions are perfect but is it really the huge disaster that you make it out to be?
Quote from: Asdrael on August 01, 2018, 03:51:36 PM
Like the online garage bug. You know, just a "noted". 5 letters. Would do wonders!
It is noted. We just can't replicate it :(
Quote from: Asdrael on August 01, 2018, 03:51:36 PM
Like the online garage bug. You know, just a "noted". 5 letters. Would do wonders!
It is noted. We just can't replicate it :(
Is it possible that something happened during upload of beta 8? I get the garage bug multiple times a day. Seems like half the community has experienced the bug and the other half hasn't. For 2 weeks hitting "save as" was working for me with no issue's, then one day it came back and hasn't stopped. Swear this game has a mind of its own lol.
Thanks for taking the time to reply in a detailed fashion and trying to replicate it. And apologies for over-heating.
As I said, I tried a lot of settings and don't see any difference. For compression, I have been using MaxHUD with a threshold of 1% to see "bottoming out" as well as replay verification. Easy enough to do when playing as the icon stays for a bit. For this, all my tests indicated bottoming out at the exact same spot when taking the same line at the same speed. General behaviour was also unchanged (hence why I moved on to modifying the cfg and carried on the same tests with the same results).
For rebound, I chose a jump face that I knew I was bottoming out on, and took it at same angle, same speed, same position several times with different extreme rebound settigns. Then I counted how many frames it took for the rear to go back to full extension in replay mode, Orbit camera. No changes were seen (I think 5 frames?). Similar story with cfg changes.
This is why my conclusion was an issue with suspensions values being called.
I doubt it is a perception thing because as I said, some really stupid values where put in the cfg (I changed every possible suspension value multiple times as you suggested).
Now if you don't see the same behaviour, while at least some other players do see it, it might be a problem on "our computers". Meaning, the install file didn't work as supposed (mind you I have a 100% clean beta8 install), or the settings are not properly saved / called (which might be a reason for the online garage crash that you can't reproduce). I know Windows 10 has issues with games since the last Creator's update, but I'm not reverting my OS for that :p I will run some more tests with administrator, compatibility, check some read-only parameters etc.
Reran all tests with administrator mode / windows 7 compatibility / unchecked read-only in the document folders. Still no difference at all between settings.
Stupid question: have you guys tried downloading the installer you uploaded and playing from that?
Sorry for you guys that have the trouble. I've been successfully changing suspension settings while online. Using more rebound damping and less compression damping with higher spring rate makes for a more tame setup. I'm getting better and having a lot more fun even without other online racers. Tonight's syncback update should remedy that!
Ran (much) more tests.
Running Windows 8 compatibility seems to allow to setup changes to make an impact (lol?). Not sure if it's my comp or a general compatibility issue (I can forward my specs and all as needed, but I'm running Windows 10 with all updates, clean Windows install this May, not Windows modifications, running it as single master user).
A bit more testing however hinted at all damping values range being off by a factor 3 to 5 (I would say). Meaning, the 'lowest' damping (giving the less resistance, so fast rebound, no resistance on compression) are more or less ok, but the highest damping (slowing rebound, high resistance to compression) could be 3 to 5 times more important.
Hope that helped, thanks again for the detailed reply earlier.