Hello all,
I'have notice something illogical... When you jump, the bike already lean foward, and to counter it, you need to lean forward too...It's not logical... In fact, when the bike lean foward ( 90% of time grrrr ) you need te lean forward too, and when the bike lean backward, you need to lean backward too....
I'm riding in real life, and I do not this... I lean foward + rear break when my bike lean backward I lean backward + gaz when my bike lean foward...
And it's very frustrating too have the bike already lean foward on jump...
So one more point to finish... For a 350cm3, the front wheel rises up to easily when you accelerate... Very very too easily... It rise up more like my real 450 lol!
same here if i lean forward ingame my front tire come up
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 09:28:15 PM
Hello all,
I'have notice something illogical... When you jump, the bike already lean foward, and to counter it, you need to lean forward too...It's not logical... In fact, when the bike lean foward ( 90% of time grrrr ) you need te lean forward too, and when the bike lean backward, you need to lean backward too....
I'm riding in real life, and I do not this... I lean foward + rear break when my bike lean backward I lean backward + gaz when my bike lean foward...
And it's very frustrating too have the bike already lean foward on jump...
So one more point to finish... For a 350cm3, the front wheel rises up to easily when you accelerate... Very very too easily... It rise up more like my real 450 lol!
What forces do you apply on the handlebar and pegs to lean forward in the air?
I now what you mean Pib', i pull my handlebar ( if you see that with an exterior view )... But, when you ride you don't think like that... You lean your bike with you full body movement... And when you are in the air, when you want to lean foward, you think you move your body on foward... But you don't think to push your handlebar... It's a reflex... Arms and legs works like rubber band to restiture your body movement... So, if you have rigid arms and legs, you can't lean forward or backward because you can't move your body... So Step by step, when you want to lean forward, you move foward, your arms absorbe it and restitute body's movement in few miliseconde...
And for example, if i want to pass whoops on rear wheel, i lean hard backward with my body...and pull my handlebar... it's the same in air....
I think, if it is a debate, it could be cool to have an option too invert it... So from my exprerience, it's not logical like this... MXS is more logical for this.. ( lean F/B system )
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:05:03 PM
I now what you mean Pib', i push my handlebar...
Push or pull?
Do you push on the pegs to move the body back?
I move my body foward, and i push my handlebar...the bike lean foward...
I move my body back, i pull my handlebar... the bike lean backward...
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:24:04 PM
I move my body foward, and i push my handlebar...the bike lean foward...
I move my body back, i pull my handlebar... the bike lean backward...
???
If you push the handlebars, doesn't the body move back, away from the handlebars?
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 10, 2014, 10:25:42 PM
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:24:04 PM
I move my body foward, and i push my handlebar...the bike lean foward...
I move my body back, i pull my handlebar... the bike lean backward...
???
If you push the handlebars, doesn't the body moves back, away from the handlebars?
Mfff... It's difficult to understand... But like i tell it, your arms works like rubberband or suspension... It's not what you do whit it first... It's the inertia you create first with your body you transmite to your bike... Like if you have an input lag between your body and your bike.... But i see no body inertia in air in mxbike... It's the inertia wich move your bike... not the force
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:35:47 PM
Mfff... It's difficult to understand... But like i tell it, your arms works like rubberband or suspension... It's not what you do whit it first... It's the inertia you create first with your body you transmite to your bike... Like if you have an input lag between your body and your bike.... But i see no body inertia in air in mxbike... It's the inertia wich move your bike... not the force
Newton is likely puking half-digested apple bites in his grave right now ;D
For me it's the opposite: most jumps I have to lean back to avoid landing on my nose (lean back = push the handlebar).
@jlou5641: are you sure you have not inverted your rider lean fwd/back input setting ? Check in the input settings because it's very common mistake
@Piboso/Snappe: in the controller setup screen the function is called (rider)
F/B lean , but when you assign it, you're requested to push
backward first (instead than fwd first). I've read about plenty of people falling in this pitfall here. Much less in GPB, but GPB people are notoriously smarter, so that's not a big news :) Anyay, it'd probably be better to swap that (i.e. ask to push the stick for lean FWD first)
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 11, 2014, 12:11:35 AM
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:35:47 PM
Mfff... It's difficult to understand... But like i tell it, your arms works like rubberband or suspension... It's not what you do whit it first... It's the inertia you create first with your body you transmite to your bike... Like if you have an input lag between your body and your bike.... But i see no body inertia in air in mxbike... It's the inertia wich move your bike... not the force
Newton is likely puking half-digested apple bites in his grave right now ;D
For me it's the opposite: most jumps I have to lean back to avoid landing on my nose (lean back = push the handlebar).
@jlou5641: are you sure you have not inverted your rider lean fwd/back input setting ? Check in the input settings because it's very common mistake
@Piboso/Snappe: in the controller setup screen the function is called (rider) F/B lean , but when you assign it, you're requested to push backward first (instead than fwd first). I've read about plenty of people falling in this pitfall here. Much less in GPB, but GPB people are notoriously smarter, so that's not a big news :) Anyay, it'd probably be better to swap that (i.e. ask to push the stick for lean FWD first)
MaX.
Max, i have not inverted my rider lean.. I reassyre you... My Rider leans well forward when i take a turn, to charge the front wheel...
But I think, the problem is a choice to what is the F/B lean and is effect.. In MXS, you can considerate that the choice is LEG and dorsal, so when you lean backward, the rider lean backward and leg + arms work like suspension and the bike lean backward..... In MXbikes, the choice is ported an the arms.... So, in my schoolrider, the first thing we listen, is to tihten your bike with your legs, and we listen that your bike is more controlled by your leg and your chest.
I give you an example:
When you ride on sand, like the Enduro du Touquet in France,
you ride much time with lean back and pull your handlebar in the same time...
And to pull, you need to use your leg, chest and dorsal muscle to charge back wheel and discharge front wheel. But in Mxbike, to pull, you need to lean foward.... This is why I think Mxbike not taken the problem in the good way... Unlike MXS ( I rassure you, i don't like MXS.... )... This technical tips, lot of rider forget it... and this is why they get tired arms too fast ( and me the first when i forget it after lot af km and get tired )... Because they ride there bike much with there arm, and not with there leg... The concequence to tihten your bike is you cladding ( don't know how to tell this in english ) your chest and you become only one with your bike. At this time, your arms were like suspension..
Another example, when i take a turn, theoricaly i need to countersteer.... Everyone only swears by this rule, but it's not easily like that... Countersteer represent a small percentage of my body action.... To take a turn on right, i work more with my leg and chest... I push on right pegs with my right legs, push with my left legs the left side of my bike to the right, and my bike take angle...My arms only stabilize the bike... Try to ride few meters whitout your arms, and you see how your legs and chest are important.... If you ride without arms and without tithen your bike.. you fall down... But if you ride without arms, but you tithen your bike... you go where you want.... And, that show you how much this tips is important and finally you arms works like suspension in most of case....
So, i you want to push realism on top, you need to separate Lean action and Arms actions, like legs with "sit button". I now it's the first Beta, i love it, but i can't often play it, not enough time
I hope i was clear, because i'am not speeking good english, but for me it's illagical.
So I'am hungry, I need to eat... lol ;D
we dont push or pull our handlebar in rl , we just lean and change the center of gravity
Quote from: ChrisK on October 11, 2014, 04:11:54 PM
we dont push or pull our handlebar in rl , we just lean and change the center of gravity
+1!
How to resume my opinion in one phrase! lol
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 11, 2014, 12:49:52 PM
Max, i have not inverted my rider lean.. I reassyre you... My Rider leans well forward when i take a turn, to charge the front wheel...
But I think, the problem is a choice to what is the F/B lean and is effect.. In MXS, you can considerate that the choice is LEG and dorsal, so when you lean backward, the rider lean backward and leg + arms work like suspension and the bike lean backward..... In MXbikes, the choice is ported an the arms.... So, in my schoolrider, the first thing we listen, is to tihten your bike with your legs, and we listen that your bike is more controlled by your leg and your chest.
OK, that's better.
By pure chance, I was thinking at this today and I came to a similar (not identical) conclusion: you can lean back/fwd without pushing/pulling the handlebar ...
I wouldn't go as far as saying that the arms are "only like as suspension", but I think I now see what you mean.
However, I really disagree on your other example (countersteering), but that's another topic.
Quote from: ChrisK on October 11, 2014, 04:11:54 PM
we dont push or pull our handlebar in rl , we just lean and change the center of gravity
But you still have to push on something if you want to lean. If the rider is not pushing against the handlebars, what is he pushing against ? The pegs ? The entire bike frame (as you are "one with it") ?
Maybe it even depends if you're sitting or standing: sitting, you're "one with the bike frame", so to pull you have to lean forward to have the bike pitch backward. Standing you could pull with the arms while pushing on the pegs (i.e lean backward) and the bike would lean backward.
Looks a bit complex, I gladly leave this to Piboso and Snappe to think on :)
MaX.
In mx, you squeeze the bike with your knees. Its also with your knees that you steer the bike. You use your legs/ knees to guide the bike in any direction you need to go. Your arms don't do half the work that your legs or knees do
So, i am happy i have open a debate!
its funny of you watch a pro going nosed dived they DO lean forward to pull it up. but they do it straight away as soon as they leave the upramp and time it with a blip on the throttle, they also sometimes kick the pegs gown and both feet come off until landing! but it looks natural and most people wont even think they had a moment!
Quote from: al167 on October 12, 2014, 02:04:32 PM
its funny of you watch a pro going nosed dived they DO lean forward to pull it up. but they do it straight away as soon as they leave the upramp and time it with a blip on the throttle, they also sometimes kick the pegs gown and both feet come off until landing! but it looks natural and most people wont even think they had a moment!
Thank you for the contribution.
Quote from: jbrandmx85 on October 12, 2014, 12:52:58 AM
In mx, you squeeze the bike with your knees. Its also with your knees that you steer the bike. You use your legs/ knees to guide the bike in any direction you need to go. Your arms don't do half the work that your legs or knees do
We've heard this a billion time sin GPB: people thinking you steer the bike with your body. That's not the way it works, unless you're talking about mid-air.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2014, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: jbrandmx85 on October 12, 2014, 12:52:58 AM
In mx, you squeeze the bike with your knees. Its also with your knees that you steer the bike. You use your legs/ knees to guide the bike in any direction you need to go. Your arms don't do half the work that your legs or knees do
We've heard this a billion time sin GPB: people thinking you steer the bike with your body. That's not the way it works, unless you're talking about mid-air.
MaX.
Another popular misconception is that gyroscopic effects are essential in bike handling: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh/gyrobike.htm
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 12, 2014, 03:42:22 PM
Another popular misconception is that gyroscopic effects are essential in bike handling: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh/gyrobike.htm
Right !! They are so 'essential' that people want the lightest possible rims :)
I think I've even seen somewhere a video from a dutch research team showing the stability of a "bicycle" with no gyro effect and negative trail !
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2014, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: jbrandmx85 on October 12, 2014, 12:52:58 AM
In mx, you squeeze the bike with your knees. Its also with your knees that you steer the bike. You use your legs/ knees to guide the bike in any direction you need to go. Your arms don't do half the work that your legs or knees do
We've heard this a billion time sin GPB: people thinking you steer the bike with your body. That's not the way it works, unless you're talking about mid-air.
MaX.
Sorry, but you can't compare MX and road bike!! It's an amalgam! In road bike you don't move your all body on front or on back of the bike... Only on left on or right.... It's only your chest you move back or front! And, for the countersteer...
Just few word....in off topic... In Enduro, you listen to turn without countersteer, you listen to turn by turning your shoulder, and in concequence your chest, which turn your knees and legs, which turn faster than countersteer.... That you can't doing whit streetbike.... Search lesson from peterhansel, Frétigné etc etc... So, what it be said for GPB is not totally relevant for MX.... So, i tell this, i tell nothing ( french expession ), i give you my experience from a military school of motorcycling which is internationally recognized. I was schoolrider and after, sometime unoficial teacher for those who want more...
This is the problem to make very real mx games... Because rider do more work like another mecanical sports, and you don't do it only with basic physycs... So, you need to make a choice for transcribe that you can transcribe from realite... I understand it..... So MXB is on the good way, but it's not as simply as therical math' and physics...
One question, when you turn right in MXB, which side you lean?
To finish, i think MXB is on good way unlike MXS, because you can lean on the side and it do a very big difference... And i have a real pleasure to play with it, even if i'am not totaly agree with lean system..
Cheers Band Of Rider! ;)
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 12, 2014, 07:44:08 PM
Sorry, but you can't compare MX and road bike!! It's an amalgam! In road bike you don't move your all body on front or on back of the bike... Only on left on or right.... It's only your chest you move back or front! And, for the countersteer...
Just few word....in off topic... In Enduro, you listen to turn without countersteer, you listen to turn by turning your shoulder, and in concequence your chest, which turn your knees and legs, which turn faster than countersteer.... That you can't doing whit streetbike.... Search lesson from peterhansel, Frétigné etc etc... So, what it be said for GPB is not totally relevant for MX.... So, i tell this, i tell nothing ( french expession ), i give you my experience from a military school of motorcycling which is internationally recognized. I was schoolrider and after, sometime unoficial teacher for those who want more...
At speed, you counter-steer even on a bicycle.
But I won't discuss this any longer (already done for GPB, wasted time more often than not).
If you want to dig into this, get some decent books about motorcycle physics and dynamics: you may be able to see under a different light what you do when you ride.
MaX.
I agree you cant compare GPB to MXB, as i said before you are going to have to let the two gsmes be their own game, if not MxB will not become a succesful sim imo.
Everything on a dirtbike is in your core, your center of gravity, if you endo a jump what is the first thing you see someone do? They lean back moving their center of gravity. All your hands and arms do are hang on to the bike and work the controls on the bars. Watch video's on how Villopotos style on the bike and you will understand, hes a perfect example on how mxbike is ridden. And as you would imagine the way a top mx rider rides a dirtbike is completely diffrent then a top gp racer rides their street bike. Simply putting a gp bike on a mx track will not work and really that is what it feels like right now, sorry to be harsh about it.
Quote from: m121c on October 12, 2014, 09:06:32 PM
Simply putting a gp bike on a mx track will not work and really that is what it feels like right now, sorry to be harsh about it.
I couldn't disagree more, sorry. Feels nothing like a gp bike. I can only go from experience of riding 80's crossers when I was younger and riding a couple of road bikes but its enough experience to be able to disagree.
In fact thinking about it more, I think one of the most important aspects of riding is the ability to absorb the bike forces with your arms, legs and center of gravity. Everything like jumps (especially rhythm sections) whoops, exiting corners, landing etc in real life is heavily influenced by pointing the bike in the right direction and predictably letting it go where it wants (I.e knowing how the bike will react and controling it underneath you).
I know from many many years of riding mtb and bmx dirt that part of the problem for new riders is that they are too stiff. People say relax and loosen up. But thats just my opinion, watch any mx vid and you will see how loose a pro rider is and how they adjust their center of gravity to control the bikes natural movements given the speed and terrain. This is more than evident in something like mx sim where the rider is very stiff, and not so evident in mx bikes. But im sure this is a very hard element to play with. Again just my opinion.
After I posted that I thought about exactly what you just pointed out. As the "endo" situation is being used in this discussion I will use it as an example. When the bike endo's you don't push on the bars to lean back, you don't push on the pegs to get to the back of the back. The bike is already in forward motion, you simply just let it hit you in the ass while you keep her pinned to guild to try riding it out.
It would be impossible to control this I would think, the fact your body does so much when you riding, absorbing, anticipating, leaning, etc.
Now I will have to disagree with you with the "point the bike in the right direction" you don't steer with the bars, maybe at low speeds but when you are in a rut, a berm, a sweeper, you are leaning. Your entire core (center of gravity) and legs are doing all the work.
Not to be harsh on the criticism, I know they have stressed the physics are rough right now but I just don't have that feeling of riding a dirtbike at all, it still feels like gp bikes on a mx track. The thing that has made mxsim so much of success is that feeling that you are riding a dirtbike. Lets be honest, it doesn't have any bells and whistles to it and very controversial community to go along with it, but it is a success because it feels like mx. It'll get there I believe, the game has tons of potential, I just feel it needs to be looked at in it's own entity and not as a sister of GPB.
all bikes counter steer.. most people dont even realise it.
obviously its beta 1 so it has a long way to go but.. the "problem" is the same as gpbikes.. we are controlling it with a game pad!
Very interesting discussion. And it will help me to explain what it could be... With my poor English... lol.... Even if i am not agree with all what is say, but i understand the different point of view, we can see there are globaly two opinion.. And i think we can classifie it in two category.. One of real MX rider and one for the other..
After this, i have take the time to have a closer look to see difference between MXS and MXB and Reality... So, when i have watching a replay in MXB, i have see a thing which I had not paid attention:
In MXB you cannot move your gravity center on the front or on the back of your seat/bike... Which you do in MXS... in MXS and in reality, for exemple, you can start seated on the back of your seatbike, or on the front with the Lean F/B joystick ( or other ).... In MXB, if you lean F or B, it's only the chest wich is moving...
Finally, i think the problem is here... There Lean F/B system work with the chest on MXB ( perhaps i simplified ), in MXS it work with the gravity center of the rider.
So we can tell this for the lean system in these two game:
MXbikes: Lean chest F/B system.. I Agree..
MXS: Move body/gravity point F/B system...
So, after, analysing all what is say and what i view in MXB, I can admit, Pib' you are right when you say: To push, you need to lean back and to pull you need to lean foward.. But you cannot dissociate this from the gravity point. This is why when you jump, the bike often lean forward, even if you lean back before the jump... And in reality, if you jump on the back of your bike, you go to a wheelie Jump... Therefore, i think, if it's possible, you need to had the same system like MXS, meaning we can move all body rider/gravity in addition of leaning your chest to pull an push handlebars... With this, it would join what i say, you can lean back and pull in the same time... In other words, I move back and I lean foward. After that, we will have all possibilities to ride your bike, and have a full control... It could be like this:
Left Stick: Right Stick:
Up- Move Foward Up: Lean Foward
Down- Move Backward Down: Lean Backward
Left- Turn Left Left: Lean Left
Right - Turn Right Right: Lean Right
In addition, you can make an option which associate the moves or not: Lean + Move, and it any way, associate Move F and Lean F or what you want..
What do you think of this Pib' and Snappe( and all other MXB rider )?
To finish, this topic can be move to physics section i think,
I likely want to be on Tuesday to play it again... Because i can't before
Jlou, try turning 'wheelie help' off. This has stopped 90% of the nose dive I was getting early on.
Quote from: TheFatController on October 13, 2014, 01:26:28 PM
Jlou, try turning 'wheelie help' off. This has stopped 90% of the nose dive I was getting early on.
I already play without help. I play with more rebond on front, and less on back.
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 13, 2014, 01:07:53 PM
In MXB you cannot move your gravity center on the front or on the back of your seat/bike...
You can, but only when the rider is standing.
Yes but it's a small moves... It could be move more i think. And what do you think that it could be move on sezt position, and to have move + lean sepratly? I thinks it could be very interesting....
Piboso u should read "gary Semics offroad technics" book, its not much to read. u will understand much more about riding technics after u read it :)
http://books.google.de/books/about/Pro_Motocross_Off_Road_Riding_Techniques.html?id=3h2m8q9NdMIC&redir_esc=y