Messages

rear end unsprung mass:
would it be more accurate to just remove the rear shock lower bolt and with the bike on a center stand let the rear wheel drop down onto some scales? this would give actual unsprung mass at point of contact of wheel. allowing for chain, calliper position ect (I can do this if required but my bikes a bit old 2006 crf450r) would be very close still!

for the front forks:
also id assume the lower portion of the fork, fork guards, calliper and axel is counted as unsprung weight? id guess 50% of fork mass for the lower portion. but the forks really need to be disassembled for accurate weighting(sorry not going to do this, maybe someones doing some seals at the moment??). also my forks are the older spring type that are  about1kg heavier than the new psd pneumatic forks that come on most of the bikes from 2013 on (springless).
ill see what I can manage, here too, but I wont be able to do it until the weekend...

wheels
I can see how you need the masses for the wheels for gyroscopic forces. separating masses of hub, tire, rim for calculations may be needed here?

good luck with it piboso!

I have nearly 10 years with mxs. Countless hours. I get around a track just fine in it. I can still pick up on what it lacks. It certainly can be a lot of fun, but realistic is something I would not call it.

not trying to get too off topic, but im interested on your view. please elaborate?

Well, let me preface this by saying that I have about 25 years ( started when I was 8 ) of riding and racing experience and reached a very high level. I know the feeling of riding in the real world very well. MX sim does some things right that are satisfying to pull off. However, it does not realistically simulate the physics of a motocross bike. The lack of independent rider lean and the physics being a bit floaty are my two main issues with it. The weight of everything doesn't feel right. You get used to it and adapt once you learn the physics of the game. MX-Bikes on the other hand... While still early in development and definitely needs some polish, is leaps ahead of simulating the real thing compared to mx sim.

And getting away from just the simulation part of it... The lack of shadows really gives you a feeling of disconnect from the ground. Every time I see someone compare the two games here... I open up mx sim and see for myself the difference so it's fresh in my mind. I really believe Piboso will have the premier motocross simulation once this thing exits beta. To me it's already the better simulation.

I have similar life experiences too here in aus, raced mx and sx ect for many years but now just casual rider and couch racer.
I also would love dynamic shadows in mxs,I don't understand some of jlvs ideas, like non user friendly menues and his marketing is just horrific lol (just look at the mxs website)
I do understand the floaty feeling your talking about, I spent a lot of time on reflex before I played mxs, and I remember the floaty feel at first, but its actually right. Its just the way the view is compare to games like reflex.  it uses real forces for gravity ect just like mxbikes,  so it cant be wrong and you will probably have to get used to it.. maybe its the fact that most tracks for mxs are so over scaled and you feel like your floating, but you are actually floating huge 50m triples ect. 
another thing to think of, do you really think the rider moves left to right much in real life? watch some rear mudguard go pro footage on youtube. you will be so surprised how little the rider deviates from the neutral position. it only seams to deviate when an abnormal force kicks the bike and the riders body acts more like a spring and springs sidways wich is not controlled . body position is pretty central a most of the time!! imo. im not shure if anyone has enough fingers to use rider lean. will probably only used for whipping or scrubing maybe??.

as for mxbikes, I haven't got that "thrashing an mx bike feeling yet". but im shure it will catch up very quick to mxs!!! heres hoping piboso!

I have nearly 10 years with mxs. Countless hours. I get around a track just fine in it. I can still pick up on what it lacks. It certainly can be a lot of fun, but realistic is something I would not call it.

not trying to get too off topic, but im interested on your view. please elaborate?

sounds like you two aren't "over the hump" for mxs yet. its very realistic, just totally different to any other mx game. if your into mx/sx just don't dismiss it yet. its funny how I used to think it was really junk too!! give it a few more goes before you right it off. it will help you understand this game better too.
like I said 10 hrs of game play to train your brain. 

this and mxs will both have huge learning curves. in mxs, You need to train your brain to balance the bike, before it becomes fun. It takes about 10 hrs of frustrating game play to start to get the hang of it. but once you get over the hump its very rewarding. after a while balancing the bike becomes instinct and then you are good to go! mxb is still in early beta stage and im shure it will step up to match mxs! visually its already better!!! sounds are already better too!! just needs those bike physics sorted and it will be unbeatable!!  but like The fat controller said, why don't you just get both!!

[directly]

thanks phat, ive been tinkering!! .
i think have discovered the problem to why the bike wont slide. its not traction or front/ back weight bias.

When i set the dry friction to .8 it now wheel spins everywhere. but even when the bike leans over it seems the rear wheel doesn't push out into a slide like it should. it just spins no matter what angle the bikes on.
its as if if the downwards force from the bike/ rider is always directly above the tire, regardless of the tilt angle of the bike or rider position.
are the vector forces that are acting on the wheels changing with lean? it seams they are not, and this is probably why its so stable on rough terrain compared to mxs.

When the bike leans over and the rear wheel starts spinning, the forces on it should push the rear wheel into a slide, which its not doing at present.

I use this.

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=-32


low speed stability is a big problem, but with some practice i can just ride it slowly.

I also tried holding rider forward lean at all times and the back wheel still doesn't want to slide an inch even when layed right over. its hard to explain, but its like all the rear wheels accelerating force just pushes the bike forwards and the front loses traction always first. regardless of the tilt angle. but im still not losing traction on the rear. so it may just be the rear being too grippy??(how can I tinker with the tyre model to test this?)

cheers al

I think Max could be on to something with the virtual rider messing up the input around the handlebars especially when sliding...

I use direct steering(hardcore mode) and I still cant slide the bike. so it seems more like weight distribution of traction issues to me.

very hard to follow phat! lol

piboso,
for the tyres, it seems like the bulldozing effect may be too strong which isn't allowing sliding.
also for the standard traction, both the static and dynamic co-efficient of friction seems too high.

or even the centroid of the bike and/or riders mass moment of inertia seem to far to the rear. how did you get these parameter? moving them forward might help.

another thing that may help with sliding the bike ive noticed, is the front end wash out/ low side crash trigger seems to be being activated slightly too soon. In my opinion, the riders elbow hitting the ground or handlebar should be the crash trigger for this type of crash. it seems to crash if the front tyre is in a slide, even though you haven't fully laid over and hit the ground

is it possible for us to tamper with the rider/ bike mass location and tyre model setting? and if so how.
cheers and keep up the good work!
Al

I believe Rider left/right leaning animation is not right. the rest is ok and only some posture tweeks are needed.
there are several aspects too the left/right leaning animation that seem wrong.

1) left right  lean Need to move the riders bum over too slightly(not just shoulders).

2) The rider head needs to try stay level/upright or at max neck joint movement that is closest to upright when leaning left/right. at the moment the riders head tilts in the direction of the lean which looks totally wrong.

3) The face or front of the helmet needs to follow the direction of trajectory during whip (I don't know if this is already the case or not)

thanks piboso and team great work so far with this project! no negativity here im becoming a huge fan, just some hopefully useful feedback!

[/quote]
Also piboso can anything be done in beta 2.1 with the rear end when cornering, it might be me just being crap but I feel that the rear end is not loose enough, it tracks the front end to much I think. And has anyone else noticed the cornering when turning on a sloped/banked turn? The camera goes weird and  it feels unnatural. Also I'm finding it impossible to turn on the spot, I can't come up on an inside and just brake,slide,gas out like in real life,seems I still need a big turning circle to negotiate the tighter turns. This is all constructive observations I've made piboso and please do not be offended, I love your work and still feel like I haven't paidyiu enough for the game! Cheers
[/quote]

No offense.
Steering on a slope and at low speeds are known problems, but not easy to fix.
[/quote]
I agree that the rear needs to be looser, could it simply be a centre of mass for the bike or rider?, it seems as if it where further forwards it may solve this. or it could even just a traction setting issue(too much)
Also I'm using hardcore mode 2 steering, could we have some more settings, like steering force, steering damping. Steering speed
Cheers for the hard work pibosoteam

mx bikes are very very robust machines. just flat change up and bang it down when needed without the clutch. Those dog boxes can handle massive punishment . also the rear wheel normally locks under compression and just skids the rear instead of over reving the engine. engine failures are so rare in mx, its pointless to add imo

its funny of you watch a pro going nosed dived they DO lean forward to pull it up. but they do it straight away as soon as they leave the upramp and time it with a blip on the throttle, they also sometimes kick the pegs gown and both feet come off until landing! but it looks natural and most people wont even think they had a moment!

hey max, it does seem to make a difference. they have different parameters for each. the -32 makes the steering reversed (like how most people use it in mxs)
is there any other parameters that you know of similar to this? also whats directsteer_maxtorque2=0.5 controlling?
Ive played with all the settings that much I wouldn't know what was default! lol


cheers allan

I tried out "Hardcore" mode today.  This is more like it!

MXS people need to try this out, its like the first day I downloaded MXS all over again.

Paste this into documents/Piboso/MX Bikes/profiles/"your profile"/profile.ini

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=-30

If there was some logic in the game to know when to allow you to turn the bars more or less then I think it would work really well.  Also if the current "stabilizer" (sorry not sure if that is what you call it Piboso) helped you out depending on lean angle and stuff it would be exactly what I am looking for.

Its a pain to get out onto the track but the back 1/2 of the Practice Track is where it shines, nice flowing turns on those sweepers and way more control on the straights.

I just tried this and  I agree 100% that this is where mxb needs to be going!!
also thank to hornetmax for putting us onto this!!!
ive added direct steer 1 settings abd tweeked them a bit and its much smoother also try 100 linerality in lean for more consistent feel

everyone needs to try this!

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=-32

[hardcore]
directsteer=1
directsteer_maxtorque=7
directsteer_maxtorque2=0.5