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Yea, I mean something where you could have a % of hardcore mode mixed with the "stock" mode is sort of what I am looking for.  There would be parameters (behind the scenes or adjustable up to dev team) that control how user input is used and when to help balance the bike.  The idea is to get the feeling of counter steering the bike to bring it upright after a turn without having to balance it for a desired lean angle.

The only way to get a feeling of counter steering is to use direct steering (torque or angle).

The suggestion I made after your comment (target lean rate) will not leave counter steering in your hands. However it would have the property "stick in the middle = the bike holds the current lean angle". It's definitely not "a % of hardcore mode mixed with the "stock" mode, but allows to have what you're looking for in terms of stick behaviour with the "virtual rider' taking care of the bike stability (as in the default mode).

I guess my feeling (and the feeling of a lot of people who have commented elsewhere) is that it feels too "arcadey".  While the behind the scenes simulation may be more complicated than other comparable games or sims the user does not experience much of that.  Lots of us are looking for a more challenging sim with more user input required to make a clean lap.

Just my opinion, but that's a bad approach: the difficulty in running a bike in real life is not due to the control method, it's due to the bike physics. It's like saying that riding a bike with two buttons instead of a handlebar is better because it's more challenging.

I just want to play the way it is meant to be played, lol. No reason to make this control like mxs......just play mxs.

So pib (or max) is the default game the intended game? Or is this hardcore mode (havent tried) a more pure solution?

The hardcore mode (direct steer torque and angle) are the purest solutions, with direct steer torque being even purer than direct steer angle.
However, they are not well suited to the usual input devices (joypads or even steering wheels with force feedback) and of course the fact that you miss a lot of physical feedback (not being on a real ike) makes it worse.
Historically direct steer has been introduced in GPB later on, upon request from some users (including me) but more as a curiosity than anything else.
I'd say TWIMTBP is the regular mode, not the direct steer mode. But the "target lean rate" mode could be seen as a variation of the regular mode and may make sense, at least to some.

MaX.

Hmm ... rewording properly, I guess what bearded4glory is asking is a mode where the stick position dictates a "target lean rate" instead of a "target lean angle".
This means: the more you push the stick to the right, the quicker the bike leans to the right. When you center the stick, the bike keeps the current lean.

I don't think it's less noble than the current target lean, even if for sure it's not any "purer" (pure = direct steer).
What I don't know is if it is any better. Could be interesting to try.

MaX.

Yea, I tried MaxTorque but it was not what I was expecting.  DirectSteer is more what I had in mind and more similar to MXS.

How do you even keep up with DirectSteer? It feels nothing like mxs to me :p All i do is fall over.

Well its definitely extreme because there is no stabilizer at all.  I don't know exactly how it works in MXS but all those parameters in the Advanced Stability are there to help the rider keep the bike from just falling over.  In MXB with Direct Steer enabled you have to countersteer constantly to keep the bike from falling all the way over but if the "non-hardcore" stabilizer helped it would be similar to MXS.

If we could set a mix between the 2 so that the stabilizer would only help keep the bike up but not stand it up straight that would probably be a decent attempt for right now but IDK if Piboso is interested in working on "Hardcore Mode" he seems more fond of the regular mode.

There is no more work to do on the hardcore modes, except tuning of the torque for mode 2.
Unless you want external, fake, forces to keep the bike from falling, that are out of the question.

"Hehe ... these MX guys are not yet familiar with the Piboso attitude toward simulation

Get used to it guys, it's not gonna change. And that's a good thing."

No wait .. deja vu ? 

MaX.

So would this force 1st person mode?

No.

Forcing 1st person view is a server side option, nothing to do with the "hardcore" section in the .ini file.

MaX.

hey max, it does seem to make a difference. they have different parameters for each. the -32 makes the steering reversed (like how most people use it in mxs)
is there any other parameters that you know of similar to this? also whats directsteer_maxtorque2=0.5 controlling?
Ive played with all the settings that much I wouldn't know what was default! lol


cheers allan

For direct steer 1 (angle):

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=-32

maxangle is the maximum steering angle. If you set it to a negative value, you invert the input (i.e. stick to the left, handlebars to the right).

For direct steer 2 (torque):

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=1
directsteer_maxtorque=7
directsteer_maxtorque2=0.5
maxtorque is the maximum torque applied to the handlebars. If you set it to a negative value, you invert the input (i.e. stick to the left, handlebars to the right).
maxtorque2 is a factor that makes the maxtorque vary with speed.

For GPB: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=28.msg42#msg42

In any case, you don't use both, it's one or the other.

MaX.

ive added direct steer 1 settings abd tweeked them a bit and its much smoother also try 100 linerality in lean for more consistent feel

You can't have both settings (direct steer 1 and 2).
It's one or the other (if you put them both, likely only one of them is considered).

Linearity is 100% by default (no matter if you use direct steer 1 or, 2 direct lean on or off), so unless people have changed stuff, they are already on linearity 100%.

MaX.

Try putting the dead zone on lean at 10%

Don't know if this will "solve" it or not, but it shouldn't happen anyway, no matter the deadzone or lean input.

MaX.

[backward]

i am really sick of having to pull my joystick back and then the rider leans forward, and then pulling my joystick forward and the rider leans back!!! how do i reverse it back to normal?

And I'm really sick to explain that as a general rule, one should read the messages that appear on screen: when you assign your stick to the rider lean fwd/back, you are prompted for the input "to lean backward". If you push your stick forward (as you have done), then the control is swapped.

Even worse than a RTFM case

MaX.

P.S.
Don't worry, you're not the only one who has been asking for that.

It happens for me even when in the pits: practice track, go to track, once in the pits (under the tent) stay there without giving any input. The bike slowly drifts to the right (it turns, it spins around its vertical axis).

Pushing the lean input left or right you can change the direction of the drift.

MaX.

If non realistic outside forces make the game feel more realistic then it would be silly not to use them.

No way.

Hehe ... these MX guys are not yet familiar with the Piboso attitude toward simulation

Get used to it guys, it's not gonna change. And that's a good thing.

MaX.

Does this work in MXB?  I may have to try it.

I haven't seen it mentioned in the doc, so either it doesn't work either it has been kept hidden (likely for a good reason).

I sort of saw this coming, since there are 2 groups of people coming from different games/sims and converging on this one there are going to be fundamental disagreements on what people prefer in how the game feels.

In such cases, the golden rule has always been one (for GPB at least): trust Piboso's team

IMO the way MX Bikes is now is more similar to how MX Sim is with arcade mode enabled.  As it sits the bike is doing too much steering without my input.  When I notice that I am drifting left I steer right but it is doing its own thing and messes up what I have already done.  To be a Sim IMO it needs to rely more on user input and less on targeting a lean angle.  I don't really care how that happens I just need to take back more of the control from the computer. 

That's all good, until you try direct steer in GPB (track bikes on very flat surfaces) and realize that with no feedback it's just pure masochism (in GPB there's one single player that uses direct steer and by his own admission he does it for the sake of the challenge. After months and months, he still struggle to put a few laps together and his laptimes are like the ones of a 125cc vs a motogp at monza). In MXB, with a very uneven surface and much lower speed, it would be just impossible.

But if Piboso will provide the option in MXB (direct steer), you'll be able to see by yourself

MaX.

I'm not as well versed in physics as id like, though i like to pretend i am lol. I got caught up in the novel i wrote and forgot i had already mentioned gyro. Tried my best to get the thoughts out. Thanks for pointing that out.

For an experienced rider, your understanding of physics is surely above the average I'd say.

Now let's talk abut my riding skills (which are close to zero for road bikes, never even tried a cross bike)

MaX.

The main factors  in initiating and controlling the whip are leg grip and the natural gyro of the wheels and motor rotating. The legs are mostly applying force near the ankle, where your boots are contacting the frame. Then you also are using the gyro effect of the rear wheel to your advantage. When initiating your basic whip, the take off angle, speed, body position all have a huge  effect on how the bike will respond in the air. Another force to consider is the rotational inertia of the motor components. If you approach a jump while in an incorrect gear with it producing too many rpms, the whip will behave more erratically and may do the dreaded "double whip" motion. Not good. . Now, that's typical, every whip requires something unique that comes second nature unfortunately. I tried explaining the best I could. My experience comes from 23 years riding/racing 9 of those in the A classes. Still goin strong in 25+ A and 450 A 

Hmmm .. I don't see what you mean with "Another force to consider is the rotational inertia of the motor components".
As far as I can see, the rotating engine components (mainly the crankshaft) have two impacts: 1, the gyro effect (just like the wheels, assuming the crankshaft is forward rotating, which should be the case for mx bikes I guess) and 2, the torque reaction (a forward rotating crankshaft helps wheelies, a backward one counter them). I'd tend to think only the 1st is relevant in our discussion.

So yes, the rotating inertia counts, but only because it affects the gyro effect, not because there's another effect on top of it.

MaX.

but with the steering id like to change the "leaning" to steering. I want full control of that steering!!
direct steering the bars instead of "leaning"  is where I think it needs to be. in gp bikes leaning works great because you only need to steer slightly. but on a dirtbike you are doing such tight turns and using the steering in the air to control the bike. even when on "direct" steering the steering is over ridden by something and feels unnatural. having full control I believe will fix most steering problems including control in air!

That's very very unlikely.

In GPB it is possible to have direct steering (there are even two different flavors of it), it's a option buried in a .ini file (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=28.0).
But it's extremely hard to use. For start, you should have a force feedback device (like a g27 wheel), otherwise it makes little sense (at least in one of the two variants).
Then, at low speed it's a nightmare,as the bike is very unstable and sensitive to what you do with the handlebars.

MaX.

IDK if you have played MX Simulator, seems like you have come from the GP bikes side.

Gave it a try (demo) a long ago. No thanks But I'm not that much into cross, to be honest. GPB is what I eat, drink and breathe.

In MXS if you want to turn right you move the stick to the right until you are leaned over enough then let it return to center.  Then it will stay like that until you move the stick left of center (the leveling amount does bring it up on its own but you virtually always have to correct it).  I feel like Direct Lean is dictating the bike lean angle with the stick vs. the fork angle that is a completely different thing.  I did try it and in some cases I liked it better and in some I thought it was horrible (mostly jumping).

The bike standing up just seems erratic to me and sometimes it works perfect and sometimes it over or under corrects and it takes too long to make the correction manually so I end up in the grass or one of the fences.  I think this feel works well in GP Bikes (I got that a while back and it is very good) it just doesn't feel right on a lighter bike at lower speeds.  In comparison a dirt bike should be much faster to change directions and more nimble.

In GPB and MXB the stick associated to the "lean" input (bike lean, not rider lean) dictates the lean (doh !). So yes, it's not what MXS does.
With or without direct lean, if you don't want your bike to stand up, then leave the stick where it is, do not allow it to go back to middle.

The discussion is very interesting, you should create a separate topic.

MaX.