Debate: 450cc/mx1 scale to simulation

[BadStar]

This may just be me so I am coming to you guys to help me get this straight in my head..

I don't feel like the 450cc bikes are to scale for the sim... it makes it to where I don't really enjoy riding them and forces me to use the 250x (which is not a bad thing) but the 250x seems to be on a diff scale than the 450's..which IRL should be on a similar playing field. (I do know that modern 450's are beast but it shouldn't be so dramatically diff)


Let's take Red Bud's leap as an example and maybe you guys can help me adjust this in my head or help me prove the bikes are out of scale.

1) The 450 can over jump the leap like it is a bump in the road..?
2) The 250x has to work to clear the jump

I know 450's are powerful, I have owned a modern race 4 stroke..but I find that I clear huge sections in this game and the revs sound to be putting around as if I'm just joy riding around but clearing major triple's?.. 450's are beast but watch a vid or go run a 450 on a track and you still have to throttle/attack the track. I'm having to adjust the gearing all the way down to get the gear changes and audio feedback that I feel would be accurate with a 450 on a track..  I don't want to get into the debate of what a 450 can clear in what gear irl..I know they are bad motha's, but this is a bit over kill in my mind and I'm just looking for a tab bit of feedback.  Take the stock 450 in game and go ride any track and it sounds like you riding around your back yard while over jumping triples like they are nothing lol

I understand that motocross requires rhythm and timing, I also understand a simulated vehicle on a game pad is an adjustment of muscle memory..but with that said, imo the 450's are just simply OP.

thoughts?

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

I don't know.. I used to think the 450 was waaaay overpowered but actually while making Glen Helen and Red Bud I've changed my opinions..

Watching the Red Bud MX1 from 2015, specifically the GoPro of Roczen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTIzCuJUSBw) he seems to be easing around the corner and pinning it towards the leap pretty much straight. I tested on the MSM 450f and found I could ride it pretty much exactly the same. Seeing some 250f's on the leap IRL they have to rail the corner which is the same for me on the MSM, I can clear it on the 250xf but it's a real do or die moment..

Actually making another replica, a small one, and have been lucky enough to be able to see all the jumps on google earth so I can place them perfectly in L3DT. I've got the scale as 100% as possible and every single jump rides just like the GoPro videos on the 450..

Not sure if it is too overpowered or not, but at the moment it seems spot on to me.

[Asdrael]

From experimenting a lot on a relatively to scale (1.1:1) SX track, I do agree with you. The 450F seem grossly overpowering, while the 250F seem slightly toned down compared to what you'd expect.

Basically, you have the 450F overjumping everything at 4k RPM in first gear. The 250F is struggling to triple anything even going in full blast, and doing a double to triple is impossible (with 1:1 scale even), while it's not a power issue at all IRL. The 250x feels more like a 350F than a 2 stroke too.

After checking the engine curves, they are very close to the dynos released during shoutout. So I came to the conclusion that at low speed (<50 km/h), these engine models are outside of the proper working range of this simulator for some reason. The power seem exponential instead of having diminishing returns like it should (a 250F does NOT push 2 times less than a 450F, especially at low speeds). At higher speeds, like a full-blown MX track, it doesn't seem too far off however - as long as you are above 50km/h.

[philiaN]

All i read was

Actually making another replica

[StoneRider]

All i read was

Actually making another replica

Same

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

I am mixed on it.

The 450 seems about right, maybe just a bit too much torque, but not too far off.

The 250 seems like it needs just a bit more torque, however feels good.

You can surely push the 250 A LOT more into and out of the corners, where as you have to really be careful on the 450 pushing it.

So, I would like to see the 450 just a bit tamer so it allows you to ride it much more aggressively.

Definitely this.

Although something else, we're not running deformation. I remember the brief time I spent with deformation enabled locally the bikes seemed to have a lot more staying up power / less sliding out.. Maybe deformation is required as a realistic dirt simulation and we're missing out on that making the bikes seem slightly quicker? Almost as if they're riding on tarmac.. 

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

All i read was

Actually making another replica

Whoops did I let that one slip 

[ChrisK]

i dont read the complete thread but i also have the Feeling that the 250 2 stroke is underpowered and the 450 a LITTLEBIT op

[Paradox28]

wheres is a download for Red Bud?

[philiaN]

sry mate you have to wait for the official release

[Paradox28]

no problem..I thought I had missed something

[MUD]

IMHO

I feel the 450f to be very very under-powered right now, it's WAY LESS powerful than the 350f AND 250f from beta3. I'm really dissasspointed with the horse-power, I had a few sickass tracks that I was nearly ready to beta release which rode great with the 250f and 350f in Beta3, but now I can't even clear any of the main jumps with the 450f.
Maybe it's a difference of EURO specs vs USA(and most of CANADA(at least the cool kids that don't use metric(lol))) specs. Maybe it's the Gyro rigged backwards, IDK I'm not a computer rocket scientist.

I REALLY like how much better the new(ish) physics of Beta4 react, but the power is just abysmal, it's like trying to ride a TTR on a PRO motocross track, or a 2-stroke without a jet fuel additive on that track.

Beta 3 was alright for power, but still seemed like the bikes were under-powered and using the lowest grade pump gas. I built an in game distance jump test, and was jumping nowhere near as far as I could(in real life) on a 10 year old 250f, running 94 pump octane.

(Most MX Riders that I know run straight MX Race gas or at least mix a little of it into their pump gas, or mix in a little aviation gas, or add the jet fuel additive.)

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

I'm not sure about underpowered MUD, is your track a replica or fantasy? If fantasy you've made your jumps too big, I had to fix MXBC compound and paleta for beta 4 but as fantasy tracks they don't need to be a certain way.

Seriously though, now made 3 replica tracks to scale on x y and z rideable and they all ride just like they should on all bikes.. I'm not sure there is much more to it.

If you've made replicas, maybe the height is out, or at least jump height maybe?

[BadStar]

I simply have to trust you because your making replicas and comparing real vids to your tracks... so maybe my issue is the audio feedback/gear changes just feels wrong which in turn feels op..

In other words the 450 just doesn't "sound" to be attacking much of anything yet I'm clearing entire sections ha. Also, it seems the gearing may be the cause 2nd gear can sound like putting, but your clearing triples. Maybe it's a simple audio feedback issue I'm having, sounds slow so I go faster and faster then I'm superman flying over massive jumps lol.

The fc350 for example has a strange gear box stock.. you can clear red buds leap in 1st gear haha but anyone this whole debate is based on msm450 as a baseline.

So fats, I have to trust your judgement bc replica comparison just makes sense.. so then this means the 250x is way under powered right? Have u ever tried them in your tracks vs vids..sad part is you may not find much 2 smoker vids to compare.

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

I wouldn't take my word for it, just my observation / opinion

Yeah, I reference as many vids as I can for tracks but it can sometimes be hard, especially when looking at one particular year / race / layout.

I do find it weird that I never get out of 2nd around red bud on the 450.. Not sure what that means though!