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General OEM feedback

Started by Asdrael, March 25, 2017, 02:16:11 PM

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Paradox28

I know I'm the lone wolf and don't mean it in a negative way but I feel like the aggressiveness has taken steps back since the 1.5 tire update and the move away from engine braking on the bikes.  Take that for what its worth. 

Bj Slice

May 02, 2017, 06:49:44 AM #31 Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 12:14:07 AM by Bj Slice
250 is much faster in tracks for the most part.  The power band of the 450 is for me great at this point, the problem I see is stopping it specially on corners is  way difficult than the 250. Given the 450 has more weight, it should have more grip than the 250 thus it will be faster on corners.  I can be more confident taking corners on a 250 than on a 450 as there is always a great chance on a 450 to slide out the rear tire (I'm talking about just using the engine brake and front brake  going on a corner) not on exit as throttle control will always be the factor because of power difference between the two displacements. I don't know if it is the tires or the bike itself that's making the 450 difficult to ride on corners. Just my thought. Thanks!
"Practice not until you get it right. But practice until you can never get it wrong, and make it a routine"


Asdrael

Looked at it again, not much I can do regarding 450s. The feeling of not being able to control the 450 once it starts spinning is either due to the "braking torque" curve being wrong (currently is the MSM one), but I tried changing it - it remains a trade-off I'm not comfortable with ; or tyres, but I can't seem to locate what needs changing. It's most likely in the magic formula numbers but that's too deep for me :p The only solution is to split the OEM tyres between 250 and 450, but that's a major endeavour that I don't think is worth it currently, given the admitedly beta stage of "grip physics". I'd rather see what PiBoSo comes up with next beta and look at it again.

(If someone know what to look at please tell me. It feels like tyre grip follows an hysteresis loop, and the difference between "grip loss" and "grip regained" is way too big).

For what it's worth - I'm faster on the 450 than on the 250 on every track. I'm less consistent though. I'd say the 250 requires charging it and is forgiving, the 450 requires more control. 

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Bj Slice

Quote from: Asdrael on May 08, 2017, 06:19:30 PM
The only solution is to split the OEM tyres between 250 and 450, but that's a major endeavour that I don't think is worth it currently, given the admitedly beta stage of "grip physics". I'd rather see what PiBoSo comes up with next beta and look at it again.

Thanks asd for the effort and time appreciate it. I was also thinking splitting the tyres could be a solution to this but that could be a lot of work. I like the 450 oem, that is the displacement I first rode. although I am a lot faster on a 250 due to a higher corner speed and being able to be consistently hitting the right marks. Well I guess we'll wait for the update of the grip physics hopefully next beta. Great work for the OEM bikes as they have their own character. By the way I like 2 colors for personal preference. green and yellow if I may say. =)
"Practice not until you get it right. But practice until you can never get it wrong, and make it a routine"


BadStar

Yea, proper tyre grip physics will bring this game to a whole new level.. I mean, you can downshift and sometimes the bike will wash out, lol.

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Bj Slice

May 11, 2017, 08:58:18 AM #35 Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 09:13:03 AM by Bj Slice
If we can use the full resolution of the controller trigger input it will be awesome. For now, it's like it is only half of the controller trigger range of motion is being used for the entire power band making it somewhat difficult to manage throttle control because there is not much range to work on with the throttle. It could also be the reason why we could say the 450 is over power because throttle would just jump from let's say 30% to a 100% with just a little or no throttle application at all. If we can use the wasted range of the controller trigger, it will be more manageable as you have more motion of the trigger to work on. More input resolution being used, means finer throttle. I do not know if that is changeable or somehow possible or probably would take a lot of work so I am just hoping for this to happen. But if makes the bike handle better then maybe it is worth the effort. Thanks!
"Practice not until you get it right. But practice until you can never get it wrong, and make it a routine"


Asdrael

As the OEM Nationals will be on 450 OEM, and I hear the same issues with the 450 coming up, a few pointers for 450f OEM Outdoors.

- Try reducing linearity on the throttle input (I'm using 75%) so the pad trigger ramps up slower, giving you more control over early power delivery (works with the front brake too if you find yourself locking up too soon).
- Try increasing the rear sprocket tooth number but avoid using 1st gear. Then check your engine mapping (smoother map for hard packed, tighter for soft soil).
- Change up your lines. 250f you need to keep the momentum, 450 you can cut corners and straighten up the bike earlier and compensate going wide open.
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Asdrael

Seen some discussions popping up on other threads about 450s and the KXF being a favorite.

I have no idea why, tbh I don't like it so much. I tried running each 450 exclusively for a week and see what comes out of it, and it appears that each one requires its own setup type to be good with it, then it's a matter of taste. To give you an example: I thought the CRF was "for me", but after playing the RMZ 450 (which is, on paper, the "worse") for a week I shaved 2s a lap on RedBud compared to the CRF, and I'm much more consistent too.

Since some of the OEM stuff is guess work (notably the shock dimensions and weight positioning), it won't be as accurate and comparable as it should be. But tbh, I'm pretty happy with how each bike turned out, knowing they were made without adjustement from riding them.

Some food for thought: the main engine map of each OEM 1 except the 2 strokes. The additional maps just do what they say (usually smoothen the curve, or take a bit of hp at the bottom to put it at the top). Adapted from a variety of sources to have something more or less homegeneous (there is some variability depending on the testing rack and the setting, so I had to compare from 3+ sources each time). Remember that the 350f has less inertia than the 450f.

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Bj Slice

I guess choosing a bike would also depend on the track you're racing it with. At Red Bud, I am more consistent with the rmz450 than the Kawi. The yellow bike handled the worse of the track well than the green bike. In FTT, I also like the crf450 (personal opinion) because it handles the track well. At the MXBC v2, I like the kxf450.

So it actually just boils down to which one you like more. Again Asd, you've done a great job making all of them somewhat different front each other. A difference that makes me ride different bikes at different tracks. So when the current MX Series started, I registered the RM-z 450 because it suited for me in most of the tracks I ride. I felt comfortable with it although some of the tracks it gets  a little disadvantage but that's how it should be.


One heck of a job man!
"Practice not until you get it right. But practice until you can never get it wrong, and make it a routine"


𝖙𝖋𝖈

It's hard to pin down what I don't like about some of the bikes, as BJ wisely points out some bikes are preferable on other tracks..

What I said in the other thread could just be my preference talking, and that's one reason I haven't posted my thoughts here, as I'm not 100% sure ;)

Bj Slice

May 27, 2017, 07:48:30 PM #40 Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 07:51:46 PM by Bj Slice
Quote from: geofanatec on May 27, 2017, 07:43:15 PM
I am 100% sure the bikes are better than stock (standard versions).

Totally agree!
"Practice not until you get it right. But practice until you can never get it wrong, and make it a routine"