Rider movement

[Jose Reina]

Piboso, do you know if you can reverse the lateral force of the pilot?
Eg left corner, the driver should tilt the bike to the left and the driver stay straight, so that the bike would turn more.

Here the opposite happens, corner to the left, and if you tilt the pilot to the left the bike spins more, and should be the opposite. Is it possible to reverse that force exerted by the pilot on the bike?

Thank you

Oh, and I think the same thing happens when the driver is standing and sitting, I should turn the bike more when he is seated, however, he turns the bike more when the driver is standing ...

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

Definitely agree but not sure on your wording. Do you mean that leaning the rider the opposite way to the bike lean should give you more grip? I've definitely found that bike lean left with rider lean left gives you more grip than bike lean left rider lean right.

It should be that the more in line with the bike to being more upright, the better the grip on a corner. This is one aspect that still feels GP Bikeish to me.

[Snappe]

If you mean the manual rider L/R lean, you can simply press the opposite direction when assigning the control.

As for the grip.. The L/R lean is moving the physics rider body so it should be fairly accurate. It's probably a problem with the tyre grip instead of the rider.

[Jose Reina]

If you mean the manual rider L/R lean, you can simply press the opposite direction when assigning the control.

As for the grip.. The L/R lean is moving the physics rider body so it should be fairly accurate. It's probably a problem with the tyre grip instead of the rider.

If you make a left turn, and the rider is standing, the bike spins more than if the rider is sitting.

If you make a left turn, and the rider moves Left, the bike spins more, if you move the rider to the right or leave it in the center

That's what I say, it's not right that

Of course with the default wheels

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

If you mean the manual rider L/R lean, you can simply press the opposite direction when assigning the control.

As for the grip.. The L/R lean is moving the physics rider body so it should be fairly accurate. It's probably a problem with the tyre grip instead of the rider.

If I get a chance I'll make a quick unlisted vid of what I mean to demonstrate. It doesn't feel like it could be related to the tyre as the bike angle is the same in both scenarios, it feels like the riders weight distribution could be flipped, but I guess it's possible.

[Jose Reina]

This is an example. The rider takes the curve seated and with the body tilts the motorcycle towards the curve, but the rider tilts to the opposite side of the motorcycle.
In this way, the bike is more stable and rotates more. Well ... on the MX Bikes, the opposite happens, the rider stands and leaned towards the curve, the bike turn more.

[Jose Reina]

If you mean the manual rider L/R lean, you can simply press the opposite direction when assigning the control.

As for the grip.. The L/R lean is moving the physics rider body so it should be fairly accurate. It's probably a problem with the tyre grip instead of the rider.

If I get a chance I'll make a quick unlisted vid of what I mean to demonstrate. It doesn't feel like it could be related to the tyre as the bike angle is the same in both scenarios, it feels like the riders weight distribution could be flipped, but I guess it's possible.

Yeah, I think we think the same, but my English is too bad to explain 

[Jose Reina]

http://www.youtube.com/v/RJ5-DmK5gCs&featurereload

Here you can see what I say

[Snappe]

So you feel that leaning the rider to the outside should allow the bike to lean further into the corner?

[Jose Reina]

Yes, how the screen, But, I think rather, that the rider should move the bike, not that the rider moves alone.

[Jose Reina]

In this image, is very exaggerated, but that should make, that the rider tilts the bike towards the curve

[Asdrael]

Normally:

- The rider moves his hips as well as his shoulders when "leaning". The standard position when taking a turn it to have the buttcheek on the side of the turn on the seat, the other one is above the bike + shoulder even further out (turn left: left buttcheek on the seat, right one above the bike, shoulders even more to the right).

- You get more or less the same lean angle of the center of gravity of the bike + rider when turning using different positions. Currently, the bike lean is the same regardless of rider position, meaning leaning changes the location of the CoG which is probably what causes the behaviour in the video. You actually use mostly outside lean in MX, but some situations ask for inside lean too.

- Your CoG as a rider moves much more than what is currently possible. I would say 50% more to front and back, twice the movement range to the size (so a bit more from the shoulders - until the arms are straight -, but moving the hips as well one body width in total). There are situations where you sit over the rear fender, or balls on the fuel cap, or your butt hovering way too the size.

[Jose Reina]

Normally:

- The rider moves his hips as well as his shoulders when "leaning". The standard position when taking a turn it to have the buttcheek on the side of the turn on the seat, the other one is above the bike + shoulder even further out (turn left: left buttcheek on the seat, right one above the bike, shoulders even more to the right).

- You get more or less the same lean angle of the center of gravity of the bike + rider when turning using different positions. Currently, the bike lean is the same regardless of rider position, meaning leaning changes the location of the CoG which is probably what causes the behaviour in the video. You actually use mostly outside lean in MX, but some situations ask for inside lean too.

- Your CoG as a rider moves much more than what is currently possible. I would say 50% more to front and back, twice the movement range to the size (so a bit more from the shoulders - until the arms are straight -, but moving the hips as well one body width in total). There are situations where you sit over the rear fender, or balls on the fuel cap, or your butt hovering way too the size.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. It is exactly the degrees of inclination with the max Hud ... And they are 0.2 degrees more inclination, each one can check it ... Of a return in any circuit with the rider seated and the inclination of the Max Hud activated. You will get a maximum degrees of inclination, eg 57.0

After another round with the rider standing, you will get maximum degrees of inclination, for example 57.2

Then do the same with the rider in the center, with the rider turning towards the curve, and with the rider turning towards the opposite side of the curve.

Everyone is free to think what they want, I say something that is obvious, if you do not want to see or check ...

You can also ask for example Teeds, turns all the curves with the foot rider ... because he knows that the bike so revolves more. And like Teeds, many others who also know that, just like me.

I only say it because it looks ugly the rider standing in a curve, or the rider with the body to the curve ... It is not something nice and above is not real.

[𝖙𝖋𝖈]

Jose the problem on an mx bike on dirt when doing the same manouvers is that leaning inside allows more grip, while leaning outside often results in spinning out.

IRL leaning in line with the bike to leaning outside should provide more grip In most situations. My best guess is that by moving your weight over and past the center line of the bikes CoG you're taking weight off the g forces pusing down the bikes center line and thus taking weight off the tyres, even if only a small amount, on loose dirt you will be less likely to slide out and already in position to catch the bike should it catch and upright. Also by weighting the outside footpeg your putting pressure on pivoting the bike away from the floor, and more likely to keep it upright.

If you're leaning in to the corner motogp style, and the back end goes out, you have nowhere to go but the floor.

Again, guessing here, don't know the physics behind it, the correct terminology etc.. So take that as you will.

[teeds]

I think this describes the reasons behind the MX sit up in corners thing well -

From  - http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Mx-cornering-vs-moto-gp,1277233

MX and street bikes corner completely differently. It is more than just the level of grip, it is the VARIABILITY of grip that is key.

MX bikes are designed so you can corner having broken traction, specially in the rear (relative sliding between the surface and the tire). Street bikes work on slip angle (the drift is from tire carcass flex as loads move across the contact patch) with both wheels tracking. If a road racer regularly breaks rear traction, he will not have tires for long. If you dont know what slip angle is, then go read Milliken (Race Car Vehicle Dynamics). While is is focused on cars, there is a proper description of how road tires really work.

On an MX bike, the body position is focused on recovery, because you invariably break traction and are having to recover. The flat corner "overlean" position allows you to maintain a higher average speed, because you are able to continuously recover from when you break traction. Consider that when you do not have this problem (a rut) you do not over lean. You lean in line with the bike, and your position is mainly dictated by the rut forcing your leg up, etc. You can also watch flat trackers and super moto guys. With a more consistent surface, you can get your body more to the inside, and lower, because the the variability in grip is less.

On a street bike, the surface is more dramatically more consistent, and you can push up to this constant limit without out going over as often. This limit is higher, but the limit is also much more consistent. The goal is focused on the other end of the spectrum, and that is maximizing grip at the limit. You do not have to worry about recovery as much, because exceeding the limit is a continuous state, not a super short duration event, like hitting a patch of soft dirt over hard.

So, to put it simply, on an MX bike you go fast by continuously saving it. Your position is not focused on the upper limit of grip, but the lower limit of grip, which can be dramatically different. Again...the variability is what dictates your position. If you try to ride a flat rough dirt corner like a road racer, you will end up low siding it every time. The position is too aggressive, and too unforgiving. There is not enough margin for error and the position does not allow recovery when you hit a patch with dramatically less grip.

On a road bike, you go fast by going right up to a more consistent limit. If you try to ride a street bike like a MX bike, you will be slow, because you are compromising your ultimate limit (CG too high, etc) to allow for a margin of error you do not need.

Essentially, road cornering is much more refined and optimized. MX cornering is a more robust technique, allowing for variance in grip.



Not sure if this effect is present in MXB, I don't think so TBH, but it looks more correct than not doing it is all I can say for sure. Sitting on the other hand does seem to make a difference with braking and cornering stability to me.