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[ Physics Problem ] Bike Lean Foward in Air

Started by jlou5641, October 10, 2014, 09:28:15 PM

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jlou5641

Hello all,

     I'have notice something illogical... When you jump, the bike already lean foward, and to counter it, you need to lean forward too...It's not logical... In fact, when the bike lean foward ( 90% of time grrrr ) you need te lean forward too, and when the bike lean backward, you need to lean backward too....
I'm riding in real life, and I do not this... I lean foward + rear break when my bike lean backward I lean backward + gaz when my bike lean foward...
And it's very frustrating too have the bike already lean foward on jump...

So one more point to finish... For a 350cm3, the front wheel rises up to easily when you accelerate... Very very too easily... It rise up more like my real 450 lol!

ChrisK

same here if i lean forward ingame my front tire come up

PiBoSo

Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 09:28:15 PM
Hello all,

     I'have notice something illogical... When you jump, the bike already lean foward, and to counter it, you need to lean forward too...It's not logical... In fact, when the bike lean foward ( 90% of time grrrr ) you need te lean forward too, and when the bike lean backward, you need to lean backward too....
I'm riding in real life, and I do not this... I lean foward + rear break when my bike lean backward I lean backward + gaz when my bike lean foward...
And it's very frustrating too have the bike already lean foward on jump...

So one more point to finish... For a 350cm3, the front wheel rises up to easily when you accelerate... Very very too easily... It rise up more like my real 450 lol!

What forces do you apply on the handlebar and pegs to lean forward in the air?

jlou5641

October 10, 2014, 10:05:03 PM #3 Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 10:26:51 PM by jlou5641
I now what you mean Pib', i pull my handlebar ( if you see that with an exterior view )... But, when you ride you don't think like that... You lean your bike with you full body movement... And when you are in the air, when you want to lean foward, you think you move your body on foward... But you don't think to push your handlebar... It's a reflex... Arms and legs works like rubber band to restiture your body movement... So, if you have rigid arms and legs, you can't lean forward or backward because you can't move your body... So Step by step, when you want to lean forward, you move foward, your arms absorbe it and restitute body's movement in few miliseconde...

And for example, if i want to pass whoops on rear wheel, i lean hard backward with my body...and pull my handlebar... it's the same in air....

I think, if it is a debate, it could be cool to have an option too invert it... So from my exprerience, it's not logical like this... MXS is more logical for this.. ( lean F/B system )


PiBoSo

October 10, 2014, 10:15:19 PM #4 Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 10:20:35 PM by PiBoSo
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:05:03 PM
I now what you mean Pib', i push my handlebar...

Push or pull?
Do you push on the pegs to move the body back?

jlou5641

I move my body foward, and i push my handlebar...the bike lean foward...
I move my body back, i pull my handlebar... the bike lean backward...

PiBoSo

October 10, 2014, 10:25:42 PM #6 Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 10:37:54 PM by PiBoSo
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:24:04 PM
I move my body foward, and i push my handlebar...the bike lean foward...
I move my body back, i pull my handlebar... the bike lean backward...

???
If you push the handlebars, doesn't the body move back, away from the handlebars?

jlou5641

October 10, 2014, 10:35:47 PM #7 Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 10:38:10 PM by jlou5641
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 10, 2014, 10:25:42 PM
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:24:04 PM
I move my body foward, and i push my handlebar...the bike lean foward...
I move my body back, i pull my handlebar... the bike lean backward...

???
If you push the handlebars, doesn't the body moves back, away from the handlebars?

Mfff... It's difficult to understand... But like i tell it, your arms works like rubberband or suspension... It's not what you do whit it first... It's the inertia you create first with your body you transmite to your bike... Like if you have an input lag between your body and your bike.... But i see no body inertia in air in mxbike... It's the inertia wich move your bike... not the force

HornetMaX

Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:35:47 PM
Mfff... It's difficult to understand... But like i tell it, your arms works like rubberband or suspension... It's not what you do whit it first... It's the inertia you create first with your body you transmite to your bike... Like if you have an input lag between your body and your bike.... But i see no body inertia in air in mxbike... It's the inertia wich move your bike... not the force
Newton is likely puking half-digested apple bites in his grave right now ;D

For me it's the opposite: most jumps I have to lean back to avoid landing on my nose (lean back = push the handlebar).

@jlou5641: are you sure you have not inverted your rider lean fwd/back input setting ? Check in the input settings because it's  very common mistake

@Piboso/Snappe: in the controller setup screen the function is called (rider) F/B lean , but when you assign it, you're requested to push backward first (instead than fwd first). I've read about plenty of people falling in this pitfall here. Much less in GPB, but GPB people are notoriously smarter, so that's not a big news :) Anyay, it'd probably be better to swap that (i.e. ask to push the stick for lean FWD first)

MaX.

jlou5641

October 11, 2014, 12:49:52 PM #9 Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 02:16:52 PM by jlou5641
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 11, 2014, 12:11:35 AM
Quote from: jlou5641 on October 10, 2014, 10:35:47 PM
Mfff... It's difficult to understand... But like i tell it, your arms works like rubberband or suspension... It's not what you do whit it first... It's the inertia you create first with your body you transmite to your bike... Like if you have an input lag between your body and your bike.... But i see no body inertia in air in mxbike... It's the inertia wich move your bike... not the force
Newton is likely puking half-digested apple bites in his grave right now ;D

For me it's the opposite: most jumps I have to lean back to avoid landing on my nose (lean back = push the handlebar).

@jlou5641: are you sure you have not inverted your rider lean fwd/back input setting ? Check in the input settings because it's  very common mistake

@Piboso/Snappe: in the controller setup screen the function is called (rider) F/B lean , but when you assign it, you're requested to push backward first (instead than fwd first). I've read about plenty of people falling in this pitfall here. Much less in GPB, but GPB people are notoriously smarter, so that's not a big news :) Anyay, it'd probably be better to swap that (i.e. ask to push the stick for lean FWD first)

MaX.

Max, i have not inverted my rider lean.. I reassyre you... My Rider leans well forward when i take a turn, to charge the front wheel...

But I think, the problem is a choice to what is the F/B lean and is effect.. In MXS, you can considerate that the choice is LEG and dorsal, so when you lean backward, the rider lean backward and leg + arms work like suspension and the bike lean backward..... In MXbikes, the choice is ported an the arms.... So, in my schoolrider, the first thing we listen, is to tihten your bike with your legs, and we listen that your bike is more controlled by your leg and your chest.

I give you an example:

When you ride on sand, like the Enduro du Touquet in France, you ride much time with lean back and pull your handlebar in the same time... And to pull, you need to use your leg, chest and dorsal muscle to charge back wheel and discharge front wheel. But in Mxbike, to pull, you need to lean foward.... This is why I think Mxbike not taken the problem in the good way... Unlike MXS ( I rassure you, i don't like MXS.... )... This technical tips, lot of rider forget it... and this is why they get tired arms too fast ( and me the first when i forget it after lot af km and get tired )... Because they ride there bike much with there arm, and not with there leg... The concequence to tihten your bike is you cladding ( don't know how to tell this in english ) your chest and you become only one with your bike. At this time, your arms were like suspension..

Another example, when i take a turn, theoricaly i need to countersteer.... Everyone only swears by this rule, but it's not easily like that... Countersteer represent a small percentage of my body action.... To take a turn on right, i work more with my leg and chest... I push on right pegs with my right legs, push with my left legs the left side of my bike to the right, and my bike take angle...My arms only stabilize the bike... Try to ride few meters whitout your arms, and you see how your legs and chest are important.... If you ride without arms and without tithen your bike.. you fall down... But if you ride without arms, but you tithen your bike... you go where you want.... And, that show you how much this tips is important and finally you arms works like suspension in most of case....

So, i you want to push realism on top, you need to separate Lean action and Arms actions, like legs with "sit button". I now it's the first Beta, i love it, but i can't often play it, not enough time
I hope i was clear, because i'am not speeking good english, but for me it's illagical.

So I'am hungry, I need to eat... lol  ;D

ChrisK

we dont push or pull our handlebar in rl , we just lean and change the center of gravity

jlou5641

Quote from: ChrisK on October 11, 2014, 04:11:54 PM
we dont push or pull our handlebar in rl , we just lean and change the center of gravity

+1!

How to resume my opinion in one phrase! lol

HornetMaX

Quote from: jlou5641 on October 11, 2014, 12:49:52 PM
Max, i have not inverted my rider lean.. I reassyre you... My Rider leans well forward when i take a turn, to charge the front wheel...

But I think, the problem is a choice to what is the F/B lean and is effect.. In MXS, you can considerate that the choice is LEG and dorsal, so when you lean backward, the rider lean backward and leg + arms work like suspension and the bike lean backward..... In MXbikes, the choice is ported an the arms.... So, in my schoolrider, the first thing we listen, is to tihten your bike with your legs, and we listen that your bike is more controlled by your leg and your chest.
OK, that's better.

By pure chance, I was thinking at this today and I came to a similar (not identical) conclusion: you can lean back/fwd without pushing/pulling the handlebar ...

I wouldn't go as far as saying that the arms are "only like as suspension", but I think I now see what you mean.

However, I really disagree on your other example (countersteering), but that's another topic.

Quote from: ChrisK on October 11, 2014, 04:11:54 PM
we dont push or pull our handlebar in rl , we just lean and change the center of gravity

But you still have to push on something if you want to lean. If the rider is not pushing against the handlebars, what is he pushing against ? The pegs ? The entire bike frame (as you are "one with it") ?

Maybe it even depends if you're sitting or standing: sitting, you're "one with the bike frame", so to pull you have to lean forward to have the bike pitch backward. Standing you could pull with the arms while pushing on the pegs (i.e lean backward) and the bike would lean backward.

Looks a bit complex, I gladly leave this to Piboso and Snappe to think on :)

MaX.

jbrandmx85

In mx, you squeeze the bike with your knees. Its also with your knees that you steer the bike. You use your legs/ knees to guide the bike in any direction you need to go. Your arms don't do half the work that your legs or knees do

jlou5641