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[ Physics Problem ] Bike Lean Foward in Air

Started by jlou5641, October 10, 2014, 09:28:15 PM

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al167

its funny of you watch a pro going nosed dived they DO lean forward to pull it up. but they do it straight away as soon as they leave the upramp and time it with a blip on the throttle, they also sometimes kick the pegs gown and both feet come off until landing! but it looks natural and most people wont even think they had a moment!

PiBoSo

Quote from: al167 on October 12, 2014, 02:04:32 PM
its funny of you watch a pro going nosed dived they DO lean forward to pull it up. but they do it straight away as soon as they leave the upramp and time it with a blip on the throttle, they also sometimes kick the pegs gown and both feet come off until landing! but it looks natural and most people wont even think they had a moment!

Thank you for the contribution.

HornetMaX

Quote from: jbrandmx85 on October 12, 2014, 12:52:58 AM
In mx, you squeeze the bike with your knees. Its also with your knees that you steer the bike. You use your legs/ knees to guide the bike in any direction you need to go. Your arms don't do half the work that your legs or knees do
We've heard this a billion time sin GPB: people thinking you steer the bike with your body. That's not the way it works, unless you're talking about mid-air.

MaX.

PiBoSo

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2014, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: jbrandmx85 on October 12, 2014, 12:52:58 AM
In mx, you squeeze the bike with your knees. Its also with your knees that you steer the bike. You use your legs/ knees to guide the bike in any direction you need to go. Your arms don't do half the work that your legs or knees do
We've heard this a billion time sin GPB: people thinking you steer the bike with your body. That's not the way it works, unless you're talking about mid-air.

MaX.

Another popular misconception is that gyroscopic effects are essential in bike handling: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh/gyrobike.htm

HornetMaX

Quote from: PiBoSo on October 12, 2014, 03:42:22 PM
Another popular misconception is that gyroscopic effects are essential in bike handling: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh/gyrobike.htm
Right !! They are so 'essential' that people want the lightest possible rims :)

I think I've even seen somewhere a video from a dutch research team showing the stability of a "bicycle" with no gyro effect and negative trail !

MaX.

jlou5641

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2014, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: jbrandmx85 on October 12, 2014, 12:52:58 AM
In mx, you squeeze the bike with your knees. Its also with your knees that you steer the bike. You use your legs/ knees to guide the bike in any direction you need to go. Your arms don't do half the work that your legs or knees do
We've heard this a billion time sin GPB: people thinking you steer the bike with your body. That's not the way it works, unless you're talking about mid-air.

MaX.


Sorry, but you can't compare MX and road bike!! It's an amalgam! In road bike you don't move your all body on front or on back of the bike... Only on left on or right.... It's only your chest you move back or front!  And, for the countersteer...

Just few word....in off topic... In Enduro, you listen to turn without countersteer, you listen to turn by turning your shoulder, and in concequence your chest, which turn your knees and legs, which turn faster than countersteer.... That you can't doing whit streetbike.... Search lesson from peterhansel, Frétigné etc etc... So, what it be said for GPB is not totally relevant for MX.... So, i tell this, i tell nothing ( french expession ), i give you my experience from a military school of motorcycling which is internationally recognized. I was schoolrider and after, sometime unoficial teacher for those who want more...
This is the problem to make very real mx games... Because rider do more work like another mecanical sports, and you don't do it only with basic physycs... So, you need to make a choice for transcribe that you can transcribe from realite... I understand it..... So MXB is on the good way, but it's not as simply as therical math' and physics...

One question, when you turn right in MXB, which side you lean?

To finish, i think MXB is on good way unlike MXS, because you can lean on the side and it do a very big difference... And i have a real pleasure to play with it, even if i'am not totaly agree with lean system..

Cheers Band Of Rider! ;)


HornetMaX

Quote from: jlou5641 on October 12, 2014, 07:44:08 PM
Sorry, but you can't compare MX and road bike!! It's an amalgam! In road bike you don't move your all body on front or on back of the bike... Only on left on or right.... It's only your chest you move back or front!  And, for the countersteer...

Just few word....in off topic... In Enduro, you listen to turn without countersteer, you listen to turn by turning your shoulder, and in concequence your chest, which turn your knees and legs, which turn faster than countersteer.... That you can't doing whit streetbike.... Search lesson from peterhansel, Frétigné etc etc... So, what it be said for GPB is not totally relevant for MX.... So, i tell this, i tell nothing ( french expession ), i give you my experience from a military school of motorcycling which is internationally recognized. I was schoolrider and after, sometime unoficial teacher for those who want more...
At speed, you counter-steer even on a bicycle.

But I won't discuss this any longer (already done for GPB, wasted time more often than not).

If you want to dig into this, get some decent books about motorcycle physics and dynamics:  you may be able to see under a different light what you do when you ride.

MaX.

m121c

I agree you cant compare GPB to MXB, as i said before you are going to have to let the two gsmes be their own game, if not MxB will not become a succesful sim imo.

Everything on a dirtbike is in your core, your center of gravity, if you endo a jump what is the first thing you see someone do? They lean back moving their center of gravity. All your hands and arms do are hang on to the bike and work the controls on the bars. Watch video's on how Villopotos style on the bike and you will understand, hes a perfect example on how mxbike is ridden. And as you would imagine the way a top mx rider rides a dirtbike is completely diffrent then a top gp racer rides their street bike. Simply putting a gp bike on a mx track will not work and really that is what it feels like right now, sorry to be harsh about it.

𝖙𝖋𝖈

Quote from: m121c on October 12, 2014, 09:06:32 PM
Simply putting a gp bike on a mx track will not work and really that is what it feels like right now, sorry to be harsh about it.

I couldn't disagree more, sorry. Feels nothing like a gp bike. I can only go from experience of riding 80's crossers when I was younger and riding a couple of road bikes but its enough experience to be able to disagree.

𝖙𝖋𝖈

In fact thinking about it more, I think one of the most important aspects of riding is the ability to absorb the bike forces with your arms, legs and center of gravity. Everything like jumps (especially rhythm sections) whoops, exiting corners, landing etc in real life is heavily influenced by pointing the bike in the right direction and predictably letting it go where it wants (I.e knowing how the bike will react and controling it underneath you).

I know from many many years of riding mtb and bmx dirt that part of the problem for new riders is that they are too stiff. People say relax and loosen up. But thats just my opinion, watch any mx vid and you will see how loose a pro rider is and how they adjust their center of gravity to control the bikes natural movements given the speed and terrain. This is more than evident in something like mx sim where the rider is very stiff, and not so evident in mx bikes. But im sure this is a very hard element to play with. Again just my opinion.

m121c

After I posted that I thought about exactly what you just pointed out. As the "endo" situation is being used in this discussion I will use it as an example. When the bike endo's you don't push on the bars to lean back, you don't push on the pegs to get to the back of the back. The bike is already in forward motion, you simply just let it hit you in the ass while you keep her pinned to guild to try riding it out.   

It would be impossible to control this I would think, the fact your body does so much when you riding, absorbing, anticipating, leaning, etc.

Now I will have to disagree with you with the "point the bike in the right direction" you don't steer with the bars, maybe at low speeds but when you are in a rut, a berm, a sweeper, you are leaning. Your entire core (center of gravity) and legs are doing all the work.

Not to be harsh on the criticism, I know they have stressed the physics are rough right now but I just don't have that feeling of riding a dirtbike at all, it still feels like gp bikes on a mx track. The thing that has made mxsim so much of success is that feeling that you are riding a dirtbike. Lets be honest, it doesn't have any bells and whistles to it and very controversial community to go along with it, but it is a success because it feels like mx. It'll get there I believe, the game has tons of potential, I just feel it needs to be looked at in it's own entity and not as a sister of GPB.

 

BOBR6 84

all bikes counter steer.. most people dont even realise it.

obviously its beta 1 so it has a long way to go but.. the "problem" is the same as gpbikes.. we are controlling it with a game pad!

jlou5641

Very interesting discussion. And it will help me to explain what it could be... With my poor English... lol.... Even if i am not agree with all what is say, but i understand the different point of view, we can see there are globaly two opinion.. And i think we can classifie it in two category.. One of real MX rider and one for the other..

After this, i have take the time to have a closer look to see difference between MXS and MXB and Reality... So, when i have watching a replay in MXB, i have see a thing which I had not paid attention:
In MXB you cannot move your gravity center on the front or on the back of your seat/bike... Which you do in MXS... in MXS and in reality, for exemple, you can start seated on the back of your seatbike, or on the front with the Lean F/B joystick ( or other ).... In MXB, if you lean F or B, it's only the chest wich is moving...

Finally, i think the problem is here... There Lean F/B system work with the chest on MXB ( perhaps i simplified ), in MXS it work with the gravity center of the rider.
So we can tell this for the lean system in these two game:

MXbikes: Lean chest F/B system.. I Agree..
MXS: Move body/gravity point F/B system...

So, after, analysing all what is say and what i view in MXB, I can admit, Pib' you are right when you say: To push, you need to lean back and to pull you need to lean foward.. But you cannot dissociate this from the gravity point. This is why when you jump, the bike often lean forward, even if you lean back before the jump... And in reality, if you jump on the back of your bike, you go to a wheelie Jump...   Therefore, i think, if it's possible, you need to had the same system like MXS, meaning we can move all body rider/gravity in addition of leaning your chest to pull an push handlebars... With this, it would join what i say, you can lean back and pull in the same time... In other words, I move back and I lean foward. After that, we will have all possibilities to ride your bike, and have a full control... It could be like this:

Left Stick:                                       Right Stick:
Up- Move Foward                           Up: Lean Foward
Down- Move Backward                   Down: Lean Backward
Left- Turn Left                                Left: Lean Left
Right - Turn Right                           Right: Lean Right

In addition, you can make an option which associate the moves or not: Lean + Move, and it any way, associate Move F and Lean F or what you want..

What do you think of this Pib' and Snappe( and all other MXB rider )?

To finish, this topic can be move to physics section i think,
I likely want to be on Tuesday to play it again... Because i can't before

𝖙𝖋𝖈

Jlou, try turning 'wheelie help' off. This has stopped 90% of the nose dive I was getting early on.

jlou5641

Quote from: TheFatController on October 13, 2014, 01:26:28 PM
Jlou, try turning 'wheelie help' off. This has stopped 90% of the nose dive I was getting early on.

I already play without help. I play with more rebond on front, and less on back.