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Gyro effect and counter-steering

Started by HornetMaX, November 30, 2014, 09:58:29 PM

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HornetMaX

Quote from: Stoneybonezz on November 30, 2014, 05:12:03 PM
Riding a street bike and riding a dirt bike are 2 completely different things other than the gyro effect point blank.
On this forum a lot of people speak about the "gyro effect".
I'm sure 90% of them do not know what this is and just misuse the term.

@Stoneybonezz: what do you mean with "gyro effect" ?

MaX.

Stoneybonezz

December 01, 2014, 12:19:35 AM #1 Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 08:06:09 PM by Stoneybonezz
@hornetmax simply put; the faster the wheels spin the more the bike will want to follow a set path. Centrifugal force among other factors. I'm no physicists but apparently you are, so I'll let you take it from here haha  8)

HornetMaX

Quote from: Stoneybonezz on December 01, 2014, 12:19:35 AM
@hornetmax simply put; the faster the wheels spin the more the bike will want to follow a set path.take it from here haha  8)
That's not a bad description of the gyro effect actually.
Not sure if you know what happens when you turn a spinning wheel around an axis perpendicular (orthogonal) to the spin one ... but it's not a bad start.

Quote from: Stoneybonezz on December 01, 2014, 12:19:35 AM
Centrifugal force among other factors. I no physicists but apparently you are, so I'll let you take it from here haha  8)
Your first sentence above proves your second.

No offence intended, but how can you make claims like the one you made ("Riding a street bike and riding a dirt bike are 2 completely different things other than the gyro effect point blank.") then ?!

There are many many things in common from a physics stand point. As said, that doesn't mean one rides the two kind of bikes in the same way. But saying things like "the only thing in common between he two is the gyro effect" is ... uh, wrong :)

MaX.

PizzaChet

Quote from: HornetMaX on November 30, 2014, 09:58:29 PMOn this forum a lot of people speak about the "gyro effect".
I'm sure 90% of them do not know what this is and just misuse the term.
MaX.
I hope I didn't when I meant to use it in reference to counter-steering and maneuvering with gas/brake/steering whether on the ground or mid-air, like scrubs and whips and stopping the rear tire for that pop or panic revving to save an endo. I think that would encompass the use of gyroscopic effect of both wheels. I like the improvements made in beta2 and am very excite he already has a beta3 thread.
Quote from: YodaIf no mistake have you made, yet losing you are ... a different game you should play.

Stoneybonezz

I'm not here to argue, looks like you are. Yup, stoked for beta 3 as well

HornetMaX

Quote from: PizzaChet on December 01, 2014, 04:14:25 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 30, 2014, 09:58:29 PMOn this forum a lot of people speak about the "gyro effect".
I'm sure 90% of them do not know what this is and just misuse the term.
MaX.
I hope I didn't when I meant to use it in reference to counter-steering and maneuvering with gas/brake/steering whether on the ground or mid-air, like scrubs and whips and stopping the rear tire for that pop or panic revving to save an endo. I think that would encompass the use of gyroscopic effect of both wheels. I like the improvements made in beta2 and am very excite he already has a beta3 thread.
You didn't, hence all fine :)

Only remark would be that usage of gas/braking may not always involve gyro effect (e.g. perfectly vertical bike mid-air going straight, what you get with gas/brake is not a gyro effect but a simple action/reaction thing).

Quote from: Stoneybonezz on December 01, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
I'm not here to argue, looks like you are. Yup, stoked for beta 3 as well
OK for not arguing, I just hate people posting wrong explanations masked as true stuff. Bad for the community.

MaX.

EdouardB

December 01, 2014, 10:25:50 AM #6 Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 11:51:04 AM by EdouardB
To be honest Max this is largely a misunderstanding of the term "counter-steering" in MX and roadracing.
I grew up riding motocross before switching to road-racing 5 years ago (I still ride MX 2 or 3 times a year on local racetracks for training and fun)

In roadracing, as you know, the term "counter-steering" is used for pushing on one side of the handlebar to make the bike lean on that side (a lot of riders also often pull on that same side to pick the bike up after the turn - same phenomenon). This is due to the gyro effect (if you make a wheel rotate around an axis and turn the axis horizontaly, the wheel will actually lean with good force - this is very counter intuitive) and also because you're essentially making the bike fall over by moving the front tyre contact away from the direction of the bike.

In motocross, the term "counter-steering" is used in a very different (and wrong, but that's ok to me) way: it is used to describe the fact that when you slide the rear wheel, you keep the front wheel aligned with your direction of travel. I've never heard it used in the same way than roadracing. For this reason, it IS similar to a car drifting.

Just thought I'd make this clear because it creates a lot of confusion between roadracers and MX guys.

Edit: until I started roadracing I had never even heard about actual countersteering in the road sense. It's not even acknowledged in MX. But the dynamics of leaning a bike over in MX is very different overall: the body positioning, sliding the rear wheel in and out of a corner, etc... The underlying physics are very close, but the feeling is completely different.

HornetMaX

Thanks EdouardB ! That clarifies things a bit indeed on the usage of the term.

And your description of the gyro effect is, as expected, the good one :)

MaX.

EdouardB

Also when I say that's the meaning of countersteering in MX, it is in France, Belgium and the Netherlands (these were the countries where I rode). I don't know about the US :P

teeds



I'm pretty sure this is what's called "opposite lock" the same thing used in car drifting and speeway to hold the car or bike in a semi spin while the back end slides.

MX bikes is doing opposite lock now, but the grip levels once it starts to slide seem too low and should be way more progressive to allow some control. Currently It's similar when i've been tight and really pushed my MX tyres beyond the limit (worn the nobblies way down), they spin up real easy and when cornering I have to be real careful not to loose the rear end.

This video shows the rider doing opposite lock automatically, so it's in there but not very controllable..... yet.

https://www.youtube.com/v/0ekylo8JzYM

Still damn good fun though.

I still wonder if MX bikes would benefit from separate lean and steer inputs instead of the auto counter steer setup. IMO an MX bike is more like a jet ski than a road bike, with the front wheel being like a rudder.



"Damn dirt bikers!" - Bubba

HornetMaX

Up to Piboso to confirm, but if the "virtual rider" (the piece of code that translates your target lean input into a handlebar torque) is anything similar to the one of GPB (which I think), then it hasn't got the notion of "drifting" or "opposite lock" or "counter-steering" (in the MX sense). If you ask to lean left it will steer right, because that's what will initiate the left lean, not because that's what to do when drifting.

I think that in the video above, what you call "opposite lock" is just the virtual rider trying to lean the bike more.

MaX.

𝖙𝖋𝖈

Quote from: HornetMaX on December 01, 2014, 04:15:24 PM
Up to Piboso to confirm, but if the "virtual rider" (the piece of code that translates your target lean input into a handlebar torque) is anything similar to the one of GPB (which I think), then it hasn't got the notion of "drifting" or "opposite lock" or "counter-steering" (in the MX sense). If you ask to lean left it will steer right, because that's what will initiate the left lean, not because that's what to do when drifting.

I think that in the video above, what you call "opposite lock" is just the virtual rider trying to lean the bike more.

MaX.

It definitely feels like this ^

It doesn't feel like something that can be controlled too easily, although every time I've said that in the past PiBoSo has popped up after and said something like 'already fixed for next version' lol... Maybe that's just wishful thinking here  :D

teeds

Opposite lock is in GPbikes too, when people back it in on the brakes the rider automatically keeps the front wheel tracking the direction of movement. While this happens the steering in relation to the vehicle is opposite to the turn in question. Speedway being the best example as they actually turn left in all right turns and vice versa, not just on turn in (i'm sure using counter steering too) but the whole way round, sometimes at full lock!
This type of control should still be possible either way with the correct forces being exerted by the rear tyres grip while sliding and I think this is where MXbikes suffers. This is also forward grip not just side grip, balanced by the throttle input and lean during turns.
"Damn dirt bikers!" - Bubba

HornetMaX

Quote from: teeds on December 01, 2014, 05:05:32 PM
Opposite lock is in GPbikes too, when people back it in on the brakes the rider automatically keeps the front wheel tracking the direction of movement.
Yes, but only because the player is pushing the stick to lean the bike.
In GPB it countersteer because you tell him to lean the bike.

MaX.

PiBoSo

Quote from: HornetMaX on December 01, 2014, 05:07:21 PM
Quote from: teeds on December 01, 2014, 05:05:32 PM
Opposite lock is in GPbikes too, when people back it in on the brakes the rider automatically keeps the front wheel tracking the direction of movement.
Yes, but only because the player is pushing the stick to lean the bike.
In GPB it countersteer because you tell him to lean the bike.

MaX.

The virtual rider has a control for yaw, too.