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The physics are way off on this game

Started by mxman, February 21, 2015, 05:00:22 AM

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𝖙𝖋𝖈

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 23, 2015, 09:07:04 PM
Familiar with MXGP?  ???
The rear tyre sliding is one of the two main problems of MX Bikes ( the other being the steer ).
To fix it, the plan is to tune the tyre parameters.

MXGP video game, I think the biggest problem here is the sliding in games like MXGP is fun but it's done with fake forces. It's like comparing the drifting in Need For Speed with drifting in a sim with real world mechanics that's not specifically made for drifting (I only go as far as Forza 4 so don't rip on me for not playing a proper car sim!)

Good luck with that PiBoSo, is it planned to be included in Beta 3?

GDUBMX

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 23, 2015, 09:07:04 PM
Quote from: gdubmx on February 23, 2015, 08:11:30 PM
So Piboso what are you thoughts and plans of action on the recent criticisms/opinions on the supposed "street bike" handling and rear wheel/back end adjustments. I assume you are familiar with MXgp rear end handling that was previously mentioned? What are your thoughts on the implementation of that type of movement in mx bikes? Thank you Piboso. Sorry for the 21 questions, its just nice to hear our developer  actually have an input with the community unlike that biased bunch of deaf gimps on the MVA forum. :)

Familiar with MXGP?  ???
The rear tyre sliding is one of the two main problems of MX Bikes ( the other being the steer ).
To fix it, the plan is to tune the tyre parameters.
yeah sorry I should of elaborated further. Forgive me for using that awful comparison but it replicates the movement pretty well, I chose that specifically as it was exaggerated more thus making it easier to recognize.
+1 to fat's question regarding beta 3 containing these changes. Thanks again piboso
<br />GDUBMX YouTube<br />

al167

February 24, 2015, 12:34:44 PM #17 Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 07:55:34 AM by al167
at the moment when the bike leans over and the rear wheel starts loosing traction under wheel spin, the rear wheel should slide out. this isn't happening. its like the force angle doesn't change as the bike leans over. its as if the downwards force (gravity) is still acting from directly above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbbGMGU8f3w

JohnnyMac

Quote from: gdubmx on February 23, 2015, 09:31:14 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on February 23, 2015, 09:07:04 PM
Quote from: gdubmx on February 23, 2015, 08:11:30 PM
So Piboso what are you thoughts and plans of action on the recent criticisms/opinions on the supposed "street bike" handling and rear wheel/back end adjustments. I assume you are familiar with MXgp rear end handling that was previously mentioned? What are your thoughts on the implementation of that type of movement in mx bikes? Thank you Piboso. Sorry for the 21 questions, its just nice to hear our developer  actually have an input with the community unlike that biased bunch of deaf gimps on the MVA forum. :)
Familiar with MXGP?  ???
The rear tyre sliding is one of the two main problems of MX Bikes ( the other being the steer ).
To fix it, the plan is to tune the tyre parameters.
yeah sorry I should of elaborated further. Forgive me for using that awful comparison but it replicates the movement pretty well, I chose that specifically as it was exaggerated more thus making it easier to recognize.
+1 to fat's question regarding beta 3 containing these changes. Thanks again piboso

I don't think he knows that you are talking about the mxgp video game, nor has he played MXS if I recall correctly. If not, its a bit concerning just for having a dialogue and frame of reference about how other mx games behave and what good or bad behaviors those games have. If this game can figure out how to allow the bike to wheel spin/ slide the back wheel for corners and berms in a stabile manner like mxgp game and mxs to some extent, it would be a huge benefit.


HornetMaX

If you take mxgp as reference for anything (except maybe graphics), you're likely on the wrong forum / game.

MaX.

GDUBMX

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 26, 2015, 09:22:29 PM
If you take mxgp as reference for anything (except maybe graphics), you're likely on the wrong forum / game.

MaX.

haha was waiting for someone to take it out of context, read the other posts Max. it was an exaggerated example which made the point we were trying to make.  >:(
<br />GDUBMX YouTube<br />

HornetMaX

Quote from: gdubmx on February 26, 2015, 10:06:29 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 26, 2015, 09:22:29 PM
If you take mxgp as reference for anything (except maybe graphics), you're likely on the wrong forum / game.
haha was waiting for someone to take it out of context, read the other posts Max. it was an exaggerated example which made the point we were trying to make.  >:(

I did read the other posts (before posting mine):

Quote from: JohnnyMac on February 26, 2015, 06:30:18 PM
If this game can figure out how to allow the bike to wheel spin/ slide the back wheel for corners and berms in a stabile manner like mxgp game and mxs to some extent, it would be a huge benefit.

So comment stays (not necessarily aimed at you): if one takes mxgp as reference for anything (except maybe graphics), he's likely on the wrong forum / game.

MaX.

arnzzz

I think MXGP was actually a good example, not of the underlying physics, obviously that's not what we want, but of the general way the back end of a bike can be completely independent of the front.

It was making a point that you can get the back end out irl (like in MXGP) that you simply cannot even come close to doing in MXB yet.

At no point did I, or probably anyone else thing anyone here wanted MXGP riding in MXB lol. Otherwise like you said Max, we wouldn't even be here.

HornetMaX

Quote from: arnzzz on February 27, 2015, 12:01:23 AM
I think MXGP was actually a good example, not of the underlying physics, obviously that's not what we want, but of the general way the back end of a bike can be completely independent of the front.

But how can you separate the "general way the back end of a bike can be completely independent of the front" from the underlying physics ? The two are more than tied. Well, they should be at least.

That's the very key difference between what Piboso does and what 99.99% of the other games do.

Piboso tries to model the physics as accurately as possible. Everything you see in-game comes from that. He cannot add "more gyro effect" or "more sliding out". These are "side effects" of the physics. Only way you act on them is by tweaking parameters (within the boundaries of what is realistic: if to get the "right" amount of gyro effect you have to put in a silly inertia on the wheels, then there's a problem somewhere).

Other games do things like this: when the speed is more than 20Kmh and the lean angle is more than 30 degrees and the throttle is wide open, then start a canned animation of the rear spinning out. It may look nice, it may look good and it may even be somehow rewarding to play, but that's not simulating the thing.

The whole "not enough sliding" debate has been already done on GPB forum. My personal opinion is that simulating sliding properly is extremely hard: for technical reasons (that I'll skip) and because you're trying to control a bike with a joypad, with limited control and very little feedback (compared to reality). Tweaking the tyre params (as said by Piboso, and me) is probably the best shot. Something in the virtual rider too may be worth a look too IMHO (there was a long discussion on this on GPB forum a while ago).

MaX.

GDUBMX

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 27, 2015, 02:11:35 PM
Quote from: arnzzz on February 27, 2015, 12:01:23 AM
I think MXGP was actually a good example, not of the underlying physics, obviously that's not what we want, but of the general way the back end of a bike can be completely independent of the front.

But how can you separate the "general way the back end of a bike can be completely independent of the front" from the underlying physics ? The two are more than tied. Well, they should be at least.

That's the very key difference between what Piboso does and what 99.99% of the other games do.

Piboso tries to model the physics as accurately as possible. Everything you see in-game comes from that. He cannot add "more gyro effect" or "more sliding out". These are "side effects" of the physics. Only way you act on them is by tweaking parameters (within the boundaries of what is realistic: if to get the "right" amount of gyro effect you have to put in a silly inertia on the wheels, then there's a problem somewhere).

Other games do things like this: when the speed is more than 20Kmh and the lean angle is more than 30 degrees and the throttle is wide open, then start a canned animation of the rear spinning out. It may look nice, it may look good and it may even be somehow rewarding to play, but that's not simulating the thing.

The whole "not enough sliding" debate has been already done on GPB forum. My personal opinion is that simulating sliding properly is extremely hard: for technical reasons (that I'll skip) and because you're trying to control a bike with a joypad, with limited control and very little feedback (compared to reality). Tweaking the tyre params (as said by Piboso, and me) is probably the best shot. Something in the virtual rider too may be worth a look too IMHO (there was a long discussion on this on GPB forum a while ago).

MaX.
that would be the best case scenario plus throw in terrain deformation which should absolutely play a part in the physics also. All my point was making is for me personally and the people which this game HAS driven away is that it needs more rear end independence.
<br />GDUBMX YouTube<br />

HornetMaX

Quote from: gdubmx on February 27, 2015, 03:29:51 PM
All my point was making is for me personally and the people which this game HAS driven away is that it needs more rear end independence.
This is agreed I think, Piboso himself replied to that. But from that to taking MXGP as a good reference, well ...

MaX.

GDUBMX

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 27, 2015, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: gdubmx on February 27, 2015, 03:29:51 PM
All my point was making is for me personally and the people which this game HAS driven away is that it needs more rear end independence.
This is agreed I think, Piboso himself replied to that. But from that to taking MXGP as a good reference, well ...

MaX.

Ok Max.
<br />GDUBMX YouTube<br />

teeds

Not sure how a sim'd MX tyre can behave like a real MX tyre on anything but hard pack dirt without fully simulating the dirt TBH. Until the deformable terrain is in place I consider us to be riding only on a hard packed surface, which will make slides of any sort harder to control as the tyres won't dig in or make a channel for itself just like the real deal on the same.


If I tried this on hard pack dirt I'd be on my arse moments later, kind of like MXB right now ;)



And yes the camera man did curse at me after taking this footage   8)  I roosted him good and proper lol
"Damn dirt bikers!" - Bubba

GDUBMX

<br />GDUBMX YouTube<br />

teeds

"Damn dirt bikers!" - Bubba