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The physics are way off on this game

Started by mxman, February 21, 2015, 05:00:22 AM

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GDUBMX

Nice my uncle had a mint kdx 200 which I used to ride back in the day lol. He couldn't keep up with me on my pos cagiva 125 tho haha.it looked a bit like thisNice bike mate. (Sorry to go off topic)
<br />GDUBMX YouTube<br />

Phathry25

Max, I love you and can see you're a smart guy, but....

Sitting here screaming at the top of your lungs that MX/GP Bikes is the only true motorcycle simulator out there makes me laugh. 

HornetMaX

Quote from: Snappe on February 27, 2015, 07:14:54 PM
Speaking of terrain deformation, we've been working on inclement conditions recently...

Video, or it didn't happen :)

Quote from: Phathry25 on February 27, 2015, 07:27:46 PM
Max, I love you and can see you're a smart guy, but....

Sitting here screaming at the top of your lungs that MX/GP Bikes is the only true motorcycle simulator out there makes me laugh. 

I can easily put MXS too in the category "motorcycle simulators", from what I've read mostly, I never really tried it past 15min.

I don't know if MXB/GPB is the only true one, probably not (even if MXS aside, I know no other contender) ... but MXGP (and MotoGP14 or the incoming RIDE) ... a 15 sec video and you immediately know they don't fit in the category. They can still be funny to play, though.

And of course, I love you too :)

MaX.

arnzzz

Max, im not saying I want MXGP physics. and obviously EVERYTHING a bike does IS physics based.

I play MXB every day, i think i know what would feel right. Just like in real life the ability to get the back out would be realistic. Im not advocating arcade canned animations
in the place of true physically based movement. Im here for simulation, im willing to play for 2 hours a night for over 5months just to get to a point where im putting in reasonable times (not great times). I think you completely misunderstood me lol.

IF arcade was what I wanted why would i be here paying 3 times the price for this sim than i can buy an arcade game for?

And i think i remember the discussion already taking place here that MXB isnt GPB. What works there may not work here. Maybe what will fix this is "just" tweaking some parameters on the tyre, i hope thats all it takes.

But i have my reservations.

al167

Quote from: teeds on February 27, 2015, 05:12:19 PM
Not sure how a sim'd MX tyre can behave like a real MX tyre on anything but hard pack dirt without fully simulating the dirt TBH. Until the deformable terrain is in place I consider us to be riding only on a hard packed surface, which will make slides of any sort harder to control as the tyres won't dig in or make a channel for itself just like the real deal on the same.


If I tried this on hard pack dirt I'd be on my arse moments later, kind of like MXB right now ;)



And yes the camera man did curse at me after taking this footage   8)  I roosted him good and proper lol

I disagree, sliding on hardpack is actually easy to do and control, just gotta keep the bike more upright when sliding but it still slides and controls easy. sounds like you havnt had much experience on hardpack tracks.

al167

February 28, 2015, 09:32:56 AM #35 Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:03:24 AM by al167
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 27, 2015, 07:37:25 PM

I can easily put MXS too in the category "motorcycle simulators", from what I've read mostly, I never really tried it past 15min.

MaX.

Max for someone so into bike sims. im surprised you haven't given MXS more of a fair go..
MXS has a long painful ten hour learning curve.
Its needed to "train your brain" so you subconsciously balance the bike. I know this is the mxb forums and talking about other games probably isn't tastfull, but knowing how the other mx sims tick is great knowledge. Just remember mxs servers are always busy even several years after its release. Do you really need to ask why this is?

I Personally don't care which game is better or worse, I just want an amazing mx game that is complete. hence my feedback here and at mxs forums.

For MXB, I believe you just can't automate the steering for an mx simulator. the sooner piboso realises this, and works on the hardcore mode/ full steering control, the game will then please the mxers and flourish.
its weird to explain, but you honestly DO need full control of that steering in an mx game.

don't get me wrong piboso or Max. Mx bikes is progressing at an amazing rate, so just positive feedback here.

and MAx do you believe piboso"s calculations on the phisics are "right" in regards to the sliding?, to me something is just way wrong at the moment,

Piboso, when the bike leans over does the downwards force of the bike and rider mass change the force angle acting on the tire? ( Ie the forces from tilted masses should always point to the tire instead of directly downwards)
with my testing this is what I believe is wrong.

just remember im just tring to help fix this.
still lots of love :) :)
Al

HornetMaX

Quote from: al167 on February 28, 2015, 09:32:56 AM
Max for someone so into bike sims. im surprised you haven't given MXS more of a fair go..
I'm not a big MX fan and I was put off by a few things in MXS: graphics, price (I really don't have an issue shedding 5x that much, but I find the price a bit steep, especially wityh such a limited demo).

But the most important one by far is: I think Piboso's approach to the control method (real physics + virtual rider + very very limited set of tuning options) is better than the one of MXS (real physics + a gazillion settings of physics stuff, more or less realistic).

I speak out of memory, I don't even know if things have changed since for MXS (I may want to have another look, as soon as I'm back home), but I doubt the whole approach has changed.

That said, I do admire the work done on MXS.

Quote from: al167 on February 28, 2015, 09:32:56 AM
I Personally don't care which game is better or worse

Same here. If anybody has read some of my posts on GPB forum, they know I'm not exactly tender when it comes down to discuss issues.

Quote from: al167 on February 28, 2015, 09:32:56 AM
For MXB, I believe you just can't automate the steering for an mx simulator. the sooner piboso realises this, and works on the hardcore mode/ full steering control, the game will then please the mxers and flourish.

That's a fair point. I wouldn't say it exactly as you said it, but I think there may be something to work on in terms of what the virtual rider does.

On the other hand, the hardcore mode (direct steer) is fully done in GPB/MXB: it gives you full control of the handlebar (setting the angle or setting the torque). What else would you want ?

Quote from: al167 on February 28, 2015, 09:32:56 AM
and MAx do you believe piboso"s calculations on the phisics are "right" in regards to the sliding?, to me something is just way wrong at the moment,
I see what he means and I have no reason to doubt. Again, I think tweaking the tire params may help a bit, but up to a point (which probably won't be satisfy most here, same thing happening for GPB). Maybe there's something to do on the virtual rider too, but to me the "not enough sliding" is mostly caused by the lack of proper feedback we have playing on a chair with a pad instead of having our ass on the bike.

BTW, can somebody show some videos of "sliding under throttle" or "rear independent from the front" in MXS ? Anything that shows how MXb should behave in terms of sliding the rear. (genuine question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic).

Quote from: al167 on February 28, 2015, 09:32:56 AM
Piboso, when the bike leans over does the downwards force of the bike and rider mass change the force angle acting on the tire? ( Ie the forces from tilted masses should always point to the tire instead of directly downwards)
with my testing this is what I believe is wrong.
Which forces ? Because the weight forces will always point downward, even if you're leaning ...

Anyway, as Piboso is using a multi-body approach, all this is mostly taken care automatically, so I really really doubt the problem is there.

MaX.

teeds

Quote from: al167 on February 28, 2015, 09:08:46 AM
I disagree, sliding on hardpack is actually easy to do and control, just gotta keep the bike more upright when sliding but it still slides and controls easy. sounds like you havnt had much experience on hardpack tracks.

I didn't say you couldn't slide, in fact my point is it's way easier to slide on hard pack, just that you can't do what's going on in the pic, i.e. speed, lean angle and throttle combination.

Maybe we wait until the cakes finished baking before we find out if we like the taste of it.
"Damn dirt bikers!" - Bubba

Snappe

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 28, 2015, 11:12:08 AM
Quote from: al167 on February 28, 2015, 09:32:56 AM
For MXB, I believe you just can't automate the steering for an mx simulator. the sooner piboso realises this, and works on the hardcore mode/ full steering control, the game will then please the mxers and flourish.
On the other hand, the hardcore mode (direct steer) is fully done in GPB/MXB: it gives you full control of the handlebar (setting the angle or setting the torque). What else would you want ?

Exactly, there already is a 'hardcore mode'. It requires a FF wheel and is really quite challenging.

al167

March 02, 2015, 11:00:59 AM #39 Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 11:12:10 AM by al167
Quote from: Snappe on February 28, 2015, 03:20:09 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 28, 2015, 11:12:08 AM
Quote from: al167 on February 28, 2015, 09:32:56 AM
For MXB, I believe you just can't automate the steering for an mx simulator. the sooner piboso realises this, and works on the hardcore mode/ full steering control, the game will then please the mxers and flourish.
On the other hand, the hardcore mode (direct steer) is fully done in GPB/MXB: it gives you full control of the handlebar (setting the angle or setting the torque). What else would you want ?

Exactly, there already is a 'hardcore mode'. It requires a FF wheel and is really quite challenging.

reasons for full steering control:
having full control of the bars is just purely necessary to do all the silly things us mxers fanaticise about. Scrubing, turndown whips, classic whips, counter steering whilst wheeling.... the list goes on and on. all these things are what people love about racing mx bikes and is why we watch mx and supercross racing!. Just watch any youtube video for reflex or mxs and see how many are emphasized just on "scrubbing". Having control of steering gives you that individual style on the bike too and when mastered can make you go faster too.

hardcore mode
I don't know of anyone that uses a wheel for mxs and its got full steering control!!. its very hard and frustrating at first, but after a few hrs it becomes very natural and easy.

We just need some more settings so a controller is more usable. :) :),  at the moment its just nearly impossible at low speeds with hardcore on, hopefully the leg push solves this a bit!!, but with some more settings this game should and will dominate mxs!!

heres some sugestions for more settings for hardcore mode:

adjustable steering force, steering damping, reduced lock at higher speeds(except in the air :D). and possably a separate reduced "neutral stick" force (so bike can "naturally steer itself" as it leans over).

heres my Hardcore mode settings for xbox360 controller. (reversed steering)
[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=-32



hope this helps out a little. hanging for the next beta too!
Cheers Al


al167

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 28, 2015, 11:12:08 AM

BTW, can somebody show some videos of "sliding under throttle" or "rear independent from the front" in MXS ? Anything that shows how MXb should behave in terms of sliding the rear. (genuine question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic).

MaX.

Max, heres a quck vid of me riding in mxs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isd7NWEr2Bc&feature=youtu.be
cheers al

Mace-x

Quote from: al167 on March 02, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
Max, heres a quck vid of me riding in mxs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isd7NWEr2Bc&feature=youtu.be
cheers al

you ride good but omg, i hate mxs now hahahaha, rider looks super stiff, controls are twitchy and it feels weird, long time without playing it.


Piboso, is there any chance to have ragdoll crashes?

that would be so awesome!

HornetMaX

Quote from: al167 on March 02, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
Max, heres a quck vid of me riding in mxs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isd7NWEr2Bc&feature=youtu.be
Well, thanks for the video, but this definitely doesn't push me towards mxs.

Judging from what I see (again, this means I can be very wrong), this is much less a simulator than MXB. In random order:

  • Terrain seems to be mostly flat, or at least the ruts seem to be cosmetic only: the bike goes across them totally unaffected.
  • No bike shadow ?! That's visually very very bad, the bike seems to be floating. Is this an option you turned off or they are really absent ?
  • There seems to be something off in terms of bike+rider weight or engine torque and traction: you can have the bike essentially stopped on a steep slope and you get it flying 10m high with a twist of the throttle. Could be just a problem of that specific bike/mod though, don't know.
  • I don't see a lot of rear sliding: when it is there, it looks a bit automagical (like at 1:20, where it saved that huge one).
  • Behavior on bumps is a bit weird, it looks super-permissive.
  • Some very weird landings: 2:03-2:07 and the incredible one at 2:25-2:31 ?!?! Really ?

On the good side, I do see that the control you have mid-air seems very good.

What were your controls while playing (i.e. how was yuor joypad set up) ?

MaX.

𝖙𝖋𝖈

Quote from: HornetMaX on March 02, 2015, 09:44:31 PM

  • Terrain seems to be mostly flat, or at least the ruts seem to be cosmetic only: the bike goes across them totally unaffected.
  • No bike shadow ?! That's visually very very bad, the bike seems to be floating. Is this an option you turned off or they are really absent ?
  • There seems to be something off in terms of bike+rider weight or engine torque and traction: you can have the bike essentially stopped on a steep slope and you get it flying 10m high with a twist of the throttle. Could be just a problem of that specific bike/mod though, don't know.
  • I don't see a lot of rear sliding: when it is there, it looks a bit automagical (like at 1:20, where it saved that huge one).
  • Behavior on bumps is a bit weird, it looks super-permissive.
  • Some very weird landings: 2:03-2:07 and the incredible one at 2:25-2:31 ?!?! Really ?

I don't think there's much difference between the terrain in MXS to MXB in relation to the way the bike behaves, referring to your first point. Heightmap is a heightmap and the ruts are cosmetic in both currently (until we get deformation) but I agree the bike in MSX doesn't seem nearly as 'tuned in' to the terrain.

As to the last point, I've had some equally strangely survived landings in MXB! Few and far between though.

I think although we don't have a lot in the way of comparison, MXS and MXB can't really be compared the way you guys are doing. Both sims are different in the way they do things, not saying either is the right way but of course I'm swayed toward MXB. But because the sims are different mechanically you can't just say 'MXS does this why doesn't MXB'.

Since a simulation is designed with real world parameters / physics models / data for both the way the bike and rider work but also the engine and world - whatever you want to reference, then surely the only comparison could be another MX simulator using the same data, so the only difference you could get between the two is the interface and any helper type systems? That makes me think that these are teething problems which only time will fix.

Could be wrong, just my view. My hope is that MXB will never slide like MXS, MXGP, Reflex etc.. More that it will ride and slide like MXB and will be realistically unique :D

HornetMaX

Quote from: TheFatController on March 02, 2015, 10:18:01 PM
I don't think there's much difference between the terrain in MXS to MXB in relation to the way the bike behaves, referring to your first point. Heightmap is a heightmap and the ruts are cosmetic in both currently (until we get deformation) but I agree the bike in MSX doesn't seem nearly as 'tuned in' to the terrain.
Really ? I can't double check right now, but from what I recall of MXB beta 1-2 there were defintely some ruts even on the default track.
And they do made a difference when riding in/out them.

They were "fixed", not evolving with time (i.e. bikes passing on them), as this is what deformation will bring. But still, they were there and had an effect, IIRC.

MaX.