Author Topic: Guitars anyone?  (Read 10887 times)

Asdrael

  • OEM Nerd
  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 996
    • View Profile
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2016, 09:44:51 PM »
Couple of things when you are trying to practice:

- Spend the money to get your guitar set up by a guitar tech. Probably around 50€, the best 50€ you will ever spend if the guy is competent. It might get rid of the buzzing.
- Use a metronome. Do it. DO IT.
- Always be in tune. Retune during a practice session (not a single video I have seen has ever said that yet it is the single best thing you can do to train your ear).

Now, regarding your issues. I have to be honest and say that the guy's explanations in the videos are pretty terrible and his fingering of the Amaj unconventional. Most people use their index finger on the D string, major on the G, etc. This is not "because it's done this way", it's because you will learn down the road that the index finger should be kept more mobile. Also, it will be easier to keep the finger in the position that doesn't prevent the side strings from ringing. Try it and see if you can make it ring properly.

Common problems leading to buzzing and involontary muting:
- bad guitar setup
- the nails/flesh of your fretting hand are too close to the next string. Fret using the tip of the finger (for those chords at least).
- Fretting too far / close to the fret and/or with the wrong amount of pressure. The finger should not be covering the fret at all, but sit next to it. From a top view, the fret should align with the very side of your finger (again, flexible depending on what / how / where you fret but it's a guide line). Pressure-Wise, go for "just enough to make it ring. Not enough, it will buzz. Too much, you'll be sharp and GOD MY EARS.

Regarding the chord progression, I'll leave music theory aside since it's probably not what you are after right now but you should look into it at some point to know why you are using this progression (and why the finger anchoring part is full of shit). Just know that using those positions, the G chord uses the 6 strings (320002), the A the 5 high strings (-02220), the D the high 4 (--0232). You can transition using --000- as this is part of a G chord and will should fine in this context, while opening up your hand for a full chord change.


Now, to make it all work together, whip out your metronome. Do the 4 beat at 60, increment when it's fluid. For the 8 bit, maybe start at 50. And increment. Slowly. You need to build it up, it won't magically happen over night to hit 200 in half notes ;)

What I did when starting out was also to decouple: get the left hand used to changing chords, forgetting the right hand. And get the right hand to strum properly, without fretting. After that, combine.

Good luck and enjoy practicing!

Also, a great song to practice easy strumming is the Nirvana - My Girl, unplugged version. It's basically and E/G rotation. And it will get you laid :p
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:46:39 PM by Asdrael »
Donate to me -> feed my coffee addiction -> get more mods!
OEM bikes pack

тғc

  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
    • View Profile
    • TFC's YouTube
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2016, 09:52:14 PM »
I went through this. I wanted a guitar badly for Christmas when I was about 10 and when I got one I instantly felt concerned for learning lol..

I started young and had lessons after school learning all the right things, how to read music, scales, practices and all that, and classic learn to play guitar songs, and I hated it so much I gave up.

About 2 - 3 years later I decided to give it another try because I had a friend who played and he showed me how to play along with a couple of offspring songs, showed me what a power chord was and I was hooked.. Then got a squire electric.

Then I started having lessons with an amazing local guy, his teaching revolved around bringing a song in every week that I wanted to learn. He was very quick at picking up how the song was played and he would go through every section showing me how to play it and would tab it out.

After a year I was able to do this myself and ended up getting really advanced all on my own. But over the years I stopped playing.

My point in this story is that I found the best way to learn how to play was by focusing on what I liked rather than what I was supposed to learn according to the purist. Playing guitar is all about having fun. If step 4 is easier than step 3, skip what you can't do and focus on what you can.

If you can't strum a certain way then that just comes down to practice. My story takes place over years not weeks.. Learning one technique can take weeks of playing every day and you need to have patience with yourself, but my overall point is learning techniques you want to know rather than ones you think you should know might help you progress quicker. Once you know more, learning the odd hard thing becomes a lot easier.
Last Project Alta Redshift MXR

Current Project Hawkstone Replica

Next Project Unknown

Buy Me a Beer

Asdrael

  • OEM Nerd
  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 996
    • View Profile
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2016, 10:26:51 PM »
FUN IS FOR THE WEAK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF6e7sBgiyw

But yes, TFC is right. Keep the fun factor high, it's the best way to make progress. Find a song you like that doesn't sound that hard, and work towards it. Slowly.
Donate to me -> feed my coffee addiction -> get more mods!
OEM bikes pack

Sandbiter

  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
    • RK Web development
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2016, 11:04:14 PM »
Thanks a lot guys!

Do I really need to get my guitar set up already? Does it make a big difference for a total beginner to learn? I've always felt like with setting up things (same for dirtbike suspension etc) that it'll be something to worry about in a later stage. First get to know the basics, be able to play some songs and then worry about setting it up correctly to make it sound even better. I actually never tune my guitar. Most of the time when I tune it to be sure it's still in tune it's still in tune. Should I check if it's in tune before every practice session?

Thanks for pointing out about Andy's explanation as well. I'll try to do the chords etc how they can be found everywhere else instead of what he's telling everyone. The finger anchoring part is actually helping me out tho. But I've always thought that actually lifting off every finger and then putting them back on in another chord shape would make my muscle memory better for those chords. Should I just lift off all my fingers instead of anchoring?

I unfortunately don't understand what you mean with the chord progression though "You can transition using --000- as this is part of a G chord and will should fine in this context, while opening up your hand for a full chord change." Do you mean that on lets say the first strum I can strum --000- and 'search' the G chord?

I'll be using a metronome next! Is Google's metronome good enough?

I'll be trying Nirvana - My Girl, unplugged version soon. I'm curious how that'll go :)

Thanks Asdrael! :)

I've actually never had any lessons. I'm trying to learn it all myself using the internet. It's probably better having someone to learn with and someone pointing out what you're doing wrong though. But I'm sure it's also possible just using the internet by yourself, at least I hope so. I don't have the money and time to take guitar lessons at the moment.

Most of the songs I like are rather hard tho haha. Some of Ed Sheeran are rather easy, still way to difficult for me, but they're being called very easy beginner songs... I'm such a noob :(

I'll just keep trying and I hope that I'll get better eventually. I'll be focussing more on finger placement, chord shapes and the fun things.

Thanks Fats! :)

Asdrael

  • OEM Nerd
  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 996
    • View Profile
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2016, 11:25:18 PM »
Do I really need to get my guitar set up already? Does it make a big difference for a total beginner to learn? I've always felt like with setting up things (same for dirtbike suspension etc) that it'll be something to worry about in a later stage. First get to know the basics, be able to play some songs and then worry about setting it up correctly to make it sound even better. I actually never tune my guitar. Most of the time when I tune it to be sure it's still in tune it's still in tune. Should I check if it's in tune before every practice session?

Having it set up is optional, but since I know how to set up my stuff myself, I couldn't live without. A couple of friends started playing guitar with your mindset. Then, they gave me their guitar to set up and they couldn't beleive it (mind you they had shit stock setup). It makes a big difference in playability (effort needed to fret properly) and sound. You can test yourself how good / bad the setup is: touching nothing, the distance between the string and the top of your 12th fret should be around 2mm for the low E (it's very rough, but on a folk, should be in the 2-3mm ballpark). Lower than that, you'll buzz. Higher you have a hard time fretting.

Tunning is part of my warp up routine. Normally you won't move much, but hey, better safe than sorry when you are building your ear.

Quote
Thanks for pointing out about Andy's explanation as well. I'll try to do the chords etc how they can be found everywhere else instead of what he's telling everyone. The finger anchoring part is actually helping me out tho. But I've always thought that actually lifting off every finger and then putting them back on in another chord shape would make my muscle memory better for those chords. Should I just lift off all my fingers instead of anchoring?
Both anchoring and lifting are used as techniques. Finger picking/arpeggios style usually anchors, chord strumming not. In the end, you'll learn how to decouple your fingers and see chords as sums of single notes. You can practice both, but for now, try having a good stable chord position. What's in between is step 2.

Quote
I unfortunately don't understand what you mean with the chord progression though "You can transition using --000- as this is part of a G chord and will should fine in this context, while opening up your hand for a full chord change." Do you mean that on lets say the first strum I can strum --000- and 'search' the G chord?
You usually open strum on weak beats, so the 4th, 8th, etc. Never on the first as you want to imprint the "flavour" of the bar you'll be playing on a strong beat. The 1st is the strongest (arguably) for pop music. So you can do G-G-G- open -A-A-A- open etc. Once again, have a look into My Girl from Nirvana. Open strumming is king in transitions.

Quote
I'll be using a metronome next! Is Google's metronome good enough?
You want something that goes "beep" regularly. There are tons of free phone apps too (they also can make different sounds for strong and weak beats, which wil be useful soon enough).

Quote
I'll be trying Nirvana - My Girl, unplugged version soon. I'm curious how that'll go :)
Shit, I meant About a Girl. It's the easiest song on the Unplugged album. If I remember correctly, it's a simple E-G rotation. The actual feel of the song comes from which notes of the chords you play on which beat, but simply playing the full chords in the right rythm will get you close enough. You can then work on the wierd G chord segmentation once you have the rythm down ;)
The whole Unplugged is probably one of the best thing to learn on an acoustic earlier on btw. Great to practice strumming, single note picking, some easy soloing.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 11:28:23 PM by Asdrael »
Donate to me -> feed my coffee addiction -> get more mods!
OEM bikes pack

Sandbiter

  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
    • RK Web development
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2016, 04:46:43 PM »
Thanks once again Asdrael!

I'll look into setting my guitar up correctly. If it really makes a difference learning I think it's something I should do.

I often hear people talk about warm up routine. Why is this needed and does it really help?

What do you exactly mean with: "You'll learn how to decouple your fingers and see chords as sums of single notes."?

тғc

  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
    • View Profile
    • TFC's YouTube
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2016, 05:11:12 PM »
Playing guitar is essentially comes down to muscle memory. If you learn how to strum and keep time allowing you to alternate strum, and strum missing strokes or adding strokes in between a basic 4/4 pattern by still moving your arm / hand while missing the strings or adding strums you need to do it to the point it becomes second nature. Once this happens you won't even think about it allowing you to concentrate on what your fingers are doing on the feet board.

And once certain chords become part of your muscle memory you won't really have to think about what you're playing while you sing.

Warm up routines for me would involve tuning the guitar by ear with harmonics, then playing a couple of things I like which use all strings bottom to top. If it sounded good I'd know I was in tune ok and by that point I'd made all the right connections between fingers and brain.

For the most part it really is about repetition. Nobody learns at the same rate so it's impossible to tell if something is going to be too difficult or too easy, but Asdrael is right about grunge.. It's probably the easiest place to start.
Last Project Alta Redshift MXR

Current Project Hawkstone Replica

Next Project Unknown

Buy Me a Beer

Asdrael

  • OEM Nerd
  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 996
    • View Profile
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2016, 05:12:18 PM »
It's important to warm up your fingers and wrist. You will feel them more nimble if you do, and in the long run, prevent injuries. Also, people often call "warm up exercices" basic warm-up combined with purely technical exercices (like hand coordination, etc). There is plenty of ideas on the net for that. I'd recommend doing it as it gets you in the mood to play and practice songs.

And about the decoupling. For a long time you'll lay down a "Amaj chord", "Dmin chord" etc. At some point, you will realise and learn that an major chord is a combination of a root, a major third, and a perfect fifth. And further down, that you can sub the third for a fourth (for example). And also, moving one finger of a chord can net you a completely different chord - and for that, it's better to work with independent fingers than "blocks". YOu can hear a pretty masterful approach to this in Jason Becker's Air, starting at 1:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtjOe5e9VFA . Yes, it is only 1 guitar. I can play it... like 70% speed then my fingers tell me to gtfo :P

I'm not saying stuff like that to bother you btw - just encouraging you to get good habits from the start. Bad habits when playing an instrument are easy to acquire, hard to get rid of.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 05:38:08 PM by Asdrael »
Donate to me -> feed my coffee addiction -> get more mods!
OEM bikes pack

тғc

  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
    • View Profile
    • TFC's YouTube
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2016, 05:30:54 PM »
The good thing about warmups like Asdrael has mentioned too, are that you can start playing them very slowly, not worrying about speed just accuracy, then slowly increase the speed over time the more you play. Rhythm is way more important than speed.

Oh and I can't seem to edit my post above on my phone the page never loads when I click save.. 'feet board' lol.. Good predictive text.
Last Project Alta Redshift MXR

Current Project Hawkstone Replica

Next Project Unknown

Buy Me a Beer

BadStar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1069
    • View Profile
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2016, 05:46:57 PM »
Sand,

  I'm self taught as well.. and I really never thought I could ever play but now I can pretty much play for hours!!


I highly recommend getting a Loop station.. it really really helped me advanced very quickly. I bought a cheap one when I was learning and now I have a massive Boss Loop Station.

The idea behind the loop station is to create a basic rhythm with some chords..then while your trying to learn a scale (soloing) you can play on top of your own rhythm and so on.

Next thing you know you are your own 2-5 man band ha!


I was only a few years into teaching myself guitar at the time but can give you an example of my loop stuff

https://www.reverbnation.com/unsui          ("presence" is good especially if you have some good speakers with bass)

Keep in mind, I DO NOT know how to play a single song on earth, I CAN NOT hear notes.. this is all NOT premeditated and live improve..but due to using the LOOPER and a theory..I can make random songs/sounds. 

Basics:

1)Find a set of chords you can play (can be very simple chords)
2)Find out which "KEY" the chord set is..  E-Minor?  Major?  (I recommend sticking with only 1 scale for a while, I did E-Minor and it works well)
3)Make a simple rhythm with the chords
4)record on looper and let it play over and over
5)Use the e-minor scale to solo along with it  (the trick! as long as you are in the right scale, just hit the notes in the right timing anf it will sound good!)


I am by no means a skilled musician..I do know what its like to start from nothing and create music learning a very simple process..so worth sharing.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 06:15:34 PM by BadStar »
Most Active In-Game        PM me and I may be able to race!
Mon-Fri
East Coast: 4p-10p 
Forum Time: 9pm-3am (-5)
Sat/Sun Anytime

Sandbiter

  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
    • RK Web development
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2016, 06:03:27 PM »
Awesome to hear that there are more self taught guitar players in this community.

I actually looked at a looper myself as well. Mainly because I love Ed Sheeran's songs and he's always using a loop when performing live. It looks rather easy to make great sounding songs that way. Yet I think the best learning steps are to not use a looper at first. I first want to be able to play songs without a looper. After I can play some songs without a looper I think I'll get a looper and make some songs using that. I might be wrong about the learning steps, but I feel like I shouldn't focus on simplifying stuff at the moment. I want to be able to play songs without any problems.

Not sure if I still want to follow Andy Guitar's tutorials. Asdrael mentioned things that make sense to me. Andy said other things though. What do you guys recommend to learn playing guitar? Search some easy song tutorial on the internet and play that? Keep doing Andy's tutorials or make my own step by step plan?

Your songs sound good BadStar! I like them. Thanks for the tips! :)

BadStar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1069
    • View Profile
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2016, 06:11:06 PM »
I think "simple" is more of a personal preference.. so just try various ways to "learn" and see what works for you!

I tried the same approach "learn a song" and it was hard, it slowed me down and took me much longer to pick up any skills.. but my point is its a individual thing.. so I had to re-adjust and approach learning in a diff way.

Personally, learning a song only cause me to learn a few aspects of one song and I didn't have much gained after..but this is just me.   Learning to play random rhythm and such helped me pick up skills and "understanding" quicker.

For example.. Many say you need to learn basic chords and basic songs. That's great, but what about doing a simple rhythm with just single notes? It's very possible and its a quick way to learn how to pick and work on muscle memory..

So, while your learning let's say "chords" E, A, C etc etc.. also just pick the note in a rhythmic fashion... single notes.. EEEEEEEEEE, AAAAAAAA,CCCCCCC,AAAAAAAA repeat. just to start playing! Then add more fingers for chords and so on.


Downfall: I may not have good habits like asdrael mentions lol.. but now that I am more confident, I can revisit some lessons that caused me issue's in the beginning.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 06:15:42 PM by BadStar »
Most Active In-Game        PM me and I may be able to race!
Mon-Fri
East Coast: 4p-10p 
Forum Time: 9pm-3am (-5)
Sat/Sun Anytime

Asdrael

  • OEM Nerd
  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 996
    • View Profile
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2016, 06:23:58 PM »
I am self taught as well. Started with a book, then basically practiced on tabs. Then Youtube came up, but at that stage I was advanced enough to filter stuff out. I have always used songs to practice techniques. Keeping it musical and fun beats mindless drills anyday.

The good thing with a looper is that you'll hear yourself play. Great way to spot mistakes. But record your loop with a metronome... A lot of guitarist do technique > rhythm > feel as priority, while it should be the opposite.

As for online material, I took a few month at jamplay.com years ago. It was surprised by the quality of the material there. It is not free but was well worth the money. Spend a bit of time finding an instructor you like and roll with it. As far as I could see (like 8 years ago), most of their beginner instructors had a good approach mixing technique and sufficient music theory for it all to make sense. There are sections for a bit of everything, including in depth song analysis. Maybe give it a try and see if it sticks.

Donate to me -> feed my coffee addiction -> get more mods!
OEM bikes pack

BadStar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1069
    • View Profile
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2016, 06:43:28 PM »
A lot of guitarist do technique > rhythm > feel as priority, while it should be the opposite.

Great statement!! I feel the same
Most Active In-Game        PM me and I may be able to race!
Mon-Fri
East Coast: 4p-10p 
Forum Time: 9pm-3am (-5)
Sat/Sun Anytime

Sandbiter

  • Hero Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
    • RK Web development
Re: Guitars anyone?
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2016, 09:34:29 PM »
Wow how did I miss Asdrael's and Fats post above BadStar's?  :-X

First of all, I've checked if my guitar was still in tune.. It was way off :-[ Tuned it with guitar tuna on my mobile and it sounds good again :) Not that I really heard that it was tuned wrong though, neither did pay attention to it. I've also checked how far my lowest E string is above the 12th fret. Well, I guess I've got to set up my guitar ASAP! Instead of 2mm it's around 4/5mm. I'm sure if it's around 2mm I get less fingertop pains and easier string sounds.

Playing guitar is essentially comes down to muscle memory. If you learn how to strum and keep time allowing you to alternate strum, and strum missing strokes or adding strokes in between a basic 4/4 pattern by still moving your arm / hand while missing the strings or adding strums you need to do it to the point it becomes second nature. Once this happens you won't even think about it allowing you to concentrate on what your fingers are doing on the feet board.

And once certain chords become part of your muscle memory you won't really have to think about what you're playing while you sing.

Warm up routines for me would involve tuning the guitar by ear with harmonics, then playing a couple of things I like which use all strings bottom to top. If it sounded good I'd know I was in tune ok and by that point I'd made all the right connections between fingers and brain.

For the most part it really is about repetition. Nobody learns at the same rate so it's impossible to tell if something is going to be too difficult or too easy, but Asdrael is right about grunge.. It's probably the easiest place to start.

I've got the strumming down now! I tend to play quicker each bar tho, so I gotta work on that. The strumming is automatic tho and I feel like I strum the strings I need to string per chord, except for the G chord. Because I'm now doing this chord sequence; D-A-G-A, I mostly strum the first 4/5 strings without giving fucks about the 6th string for the G chord. When actually playing all 6 strings it sounds wrong, but that's probably just because I'm used to playing it wrong from not playing all 6 strings.

I actually had a lot of fun playing guitar today. But since it's 22.23 pm already and my neighbours might want to sleep I quit. Still played for 30 minutes tho, so that's all right. Felt better than yesterday! :)

I think "simple" is more of a personal preference.. so just try various ways to "learn" and see what works for you!

I tried the same approach "learn a song" and it was hard, it slowed me down and took me much longer to pick up any skills.. but my point is its a individual thing.. so I had to re-adjust and approach learning in a diff way.

Personally, learning a song only cause me to learn a few aspects of one song and I didn't have much gained after..but this is just me.   Learning to play random rhythm and such helped me pick up skills and "understanding" quicker.

For example.. Many say you need to learn basic chords and basic songs. That's great, but what about doing a simple rhythm with just single notes? It's very possible and its a quick way to learn how to pick and work on muscle memory..

So, while your learning let's say "chords" E, A, C etc etc.. also just pick the note in a rhythmic fashion... single notes.. EEEEEEEEEE, AAAAAAAA,CCCCCCC,AAAAAAAA repeat. just to start playing! Then add more fingers for chords and so on.


Downfall: I may not have good habits like asdrael mentions lol.. but now that I am more confident, I can revisit some lessons that caused me issue's in the beginning.
Following easy beginner tutorials on youtube is how I started. I quickly learned that I sucked and that guitar is way more difficult than I thought it'd be! Then I started Andy's tutorials but I didn't had much fun in doing them, so I looked for some easy beginner tutorials again... Didn't work out again. I quit for a couple of months but started a few weeks ago with the approach to now follow Andy's tutorials until I can play all of the things he teaches in the tutorials. Not skipping a single one. I'm stuck at level 3 now tho, but I'm sure that I'll be at level 4 in 1 or 2 weeks :)

I am self taught as well. Started with a book, then basically practiced on tabs. Then Youtube came up, but at that stage I was advanced enough to filter stuff out. I have always used songs to practice techniques. Keeping it musical and fun beats mindless drills anyday.

The good thing with a looper is that you'll hear yourself play. Great way to spot mistakes. But record your loop with a metronome... A lot of guitarist do technique > rhythm > feel as priority, while it should be the opposite.

As for online material, I took a few month at jamplay.com years ago. It was surprised by the quality of the material there. It is not free but was well worth the money. Spend a bit of time finding an instructor you like and roll with it. As far as I could see (like 8 years ago), most of their beginner instructors had a good approach mixing technique and sufficient music theory for it all to make sense. There are sections for a bit of everything, including in depth song analysis. Maybe give it a try and see if it sticks.



"technique > rhythm > feel as priority"? What do you exactly mean with feel? I'm sorry I'm such a noob and that I don't know most of the words used to describe things. I'm just a beginner :-[

As I said previously in this post I tend to go faster and faster each bar, especially with a metronome set to 60bmp haha. I've to stay calm though, and just learn how to play every chord right without trying to be fast yet. That's also how people learn to ride dirt bikes. Technique first, speed comes eventually.

Jamplay.com looks cool. I might give it a try :)

Thanks once again for all the help guys! I love this community. I for one hope this game isn't the next Mx Simulator, because I want this community to stay the way it is at the moment.