Author Topic: Community thoughts about ripped models  (Read 14783 times)

grimm

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2016, 02:28:56 PM »
+7 for donations only. It's in our hands that bikes market won't happen. I don't know if that expression exists in English. Correct me if I am wrong.lol  ???  ::)


Makes perfect sense to me, if the community doesn't charge for models/paints/tracks, there isn't a market to deal with in the first place.

+1 on donations. I get rather put off of gaming having to pay for content (haven't played GTA5 in ages due to it) and unless it changes something drastically about the sim/game, I don't see a point in going the extra distance to have it. Assetto Corsa has had a modding community charging for tracks for the past year or so and I just don't see a point in paying over and over and over just to have eye candy tracks. The default tracks and cars are phenomenal, and new content is always really cool, but at the cost they ask for it, I would as soon just fire up rFactor and run the same courses with a less visually stunning experience.

On the other hand, you put up a donation link, I'll happily buy you a beer/tea/coffee for the effort you put into making amazing content. I know it might sound stupid that I would rather be given the option to donate than to pay for content, but it seems more friendly to ask for contribution to the effort you put in than to strait up say, "My time is worth X amount of dollars, if you want what I made, pay me for it.". I get it, I really do, but at the same time, if you're not a big developer or someone highly skilled in what you do, there is a good chance that people will pay far more than the time, effort, and product are truly worth, creating a crappy "pay to play" experience and putting people off from wanting to participate. If there is a racing series you have to BUY a bike for, and BUY tracks for, all to compete at a totally amateur level, it'll create a niche market in a huge hurry.


NorCal 986

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2016, 04:15:51 PM »
I agree, I was one of the first people on MX Simulator in 08, and nobody ever charged for downloads until recently and ask some crazy prices. But no, if there is a paid for model you won't have to buy it to go on a server, typically you are paying for the PSD and the ability to make graphics for that model.

rc4187

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2016, 04:59:35 PM »
I actually debated this with myself before I released bikes. I was even very hesitant to put a donation link up... but at the end of the day, I figured if I could get a sandwich out of my effort in the mods, then why not? I do not think they should go to paid for mods. I feel the donation link is harmless as it is not required to donate if you do not wish to.

None of my mods will ever go paid for.


NorCal 986

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2016, 05:30:37 PM »
I agree with the donations! Because if you work hard for the community, eventually some people will step up, and if not the. Hopefully they'll make bikes or tracks or help in some way!

Jose Reina

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2016, 04:37:41 AM »
Cool bike mod, glad I got it  ;D The line in the sand will be crossed but to what end?
Who's to say? I think it is up to the Admins. to lay down the laws around here and the
MODDER should follow his/her laws. When we as a community start policing what other
people do as far as there work goes we only hurt ourselves. Someone just released a bunch
of logos to which he has no rights and I am sure they are not scratch made, is that also stealing?

Where do we draw that F%$KING line?

Thanks again for the mod and the effort.

+1
I copied a suit of Troy Lee Desing - DC and gloves !!!! I'll have to remove the link?
And I see many Skins with trademarks which think they are not agree in that we copy and no one has asked permission ... and the creator of the designs also has been working on them and now we copy.
I do not understand very well because some things if you can copy and others not.

тғc

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2016, 06:56:23 AM »
Jose, we are not talking about branding, we are talking about someone else's 3d model.

I do not understand very well because some things if you can copy and others not.

There is a huge difference between recreating and ripping. Copying a helmet, bike or rider gear design by recreation is what community content is all about.. Ripping a model from a company or another person without permission is stealing.

I'd not be replying if it didn't bother me but it does. It's such a simple concept to understand.

As to whether it's acceptable or not, if PiBoSo doesn't make an official statement then I guess it is, then it's down to the community to use what custom content they want to given what's available.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 07:05:04 AM by TheFatController »
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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2016, 07:22:43 AM »
i happily donated to RC for his Pitbike model and all the beta test models he's made thus far. Plus id donate to a modeller if they were cool with people creating skins for it. ive met guys in the past that want to release bikes to the community but dont want people making skins for it, i never really figured out why? imo if i create a really good model that looks superb id want to see loads of different skins for it to see what could be done and to give beginners a chance at learning how to skin.
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pacopastor34

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2016, 07:40:14 AM »
 I'm totally agree with gdub is saying,why dont let people to make skins for a model? It's amazing to look what others can make with your model. Sometimes as a modeller I am tired of skinning or I am overfocused on polygons vertex and edges and its very helpful that others make some skins for your bike. The best way to have good content is being collaborative.

About your comment, Jose, we was taking about rip from people models or company models, I don't consider the same for both ways. I'd never rip a modder bike. But with companys as milestone I don't care  so much. Actually they earn enough money for their work. But I won't rip any model for the moment because I think it is not necessary at the moment. We will have a few models in the next days. Jays Kxf through Motostar, Rc's crf, Cr500 and the amazing Damien's RMZ...
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 08:11:57 AM by pacopastor34 »

Jose Reina

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2016, 11:53:48 AM »
Pro Evolution Soccer, has no permission to use real player names, or the names of the teams, or marks on t-shirts ...
MXGP has paid rights to trademarks (yamaha, honda, suzuki, ktm etc etc and pilots) to put their names. Without those rights would have failed to make the game.
The difference is that MXBikes is not a game with so much publicity, not with so many users, there is no mark has said anything.
On the other hand ... is ilegan the worldwide selling counterfeit clothing, shirts, bags, etc etc are all copies and is not legal.

It is easy to understand, legal or illegal, ANY COPY IS ILLEGAL, whether whatever.
Now we will see that we do, if debating whether this can and this is not, or enjoy it all while we can.

If anyone MXGP says nothing about Paco model, let's enjoy it!
If someone else makes a new model, with all their work, we enjoy more!

PS: Piboso not have rights to put KTM, so has another name;)

PiBoSo

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2016, 12:48:01 PM »
As to whether it's acceptable or not, if PiBoSo doesn't make an official statement then I guess it is, then it's down to the community to use what custom content they want to given what's available.

Illegal conversion are not allowed on this forum.

However, there are two aspects to take into consideration:
1) we cannot check every release and investigate if it's completely or partly from another source and then contact the original author to ask if permission was granted
2) until bike modding is fully understood and debugged even on the tools side, it might be a good idea to give some leeway to let modders use existing models to learn how to integrate the bikes

тғc

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2016, 12:52:10 PM »
I'm still not sure you are grasping the fundamentals. Seeing as I run Central I figured it might be worth my time just making sure nothing I host is illegal, and it turns out it's not. It all comes down to 2 simple things.

1. User created content.

Fair Use Law: Let's take a Suzuki logo for example, although the same will almost certainly apply for a complete bike skin and in relation to MXB probably completely user made and free bike models.

A quick Google:

Quote
Portraying a logo in a fictional work would generally not be considered an infringement as long as the use doesnít confuse the viewer on who owns the logoís trademark. The use of trademarks in fiction is recognized as a means for enhancing realism in a story, though the movie industry has turned that around by not only seeking permission to use logos, but selling their use to the trademark owners as product placement. Use of a logo in a fictional work that disparages the logo owner can be ruled a trademark infringement, yet use of the logo in connection with a non-fictional work of criticism is fair use.

A logo cannot be used in a way to suggest an endorsement by the logoís owner where none exists. Putting the logo of the National Basketball Association on a product line of athletic shoes without licensing the logo first will bring a quick cease and desist order brought by the NBA. Selling T-shirts with the unlicensed logo of a rock band on tour is also an infringement of trademark, and might bring a quick visit from one of the bandís roadies to stop the sales and confiscate the shirts.

So in short and in relation to custom skins, use the logo's to your hearts content as long as nothing is for sale, and even then you'd probably be OK (see models on 3d model stores with branded skins for sale)

2. MXGP model rip.

Start up MXGP on your console or PC and the first thing you will see is a disclaimer text and right at the top is:

Quote
MXGP - The Official Motocross Videogame © Published And Developed By Milestone S.r.l. All Rights Reserved.

So let's Google..
Quote
The phrase "All rights reserved" is often used in conjunction with a copyright notice. Today it has no legal significance. In copyright law, by default all rights are reserved; nothing may be done with a copyrighted work without explicit permission

Conclusion..

I'm not condoning it or trying to stop it. If you go back and read my posts I've been indifferent actually stating that it's down to the community to decide. What I have done is made an attempt to advise that actually skins are fine and ripped models are not, and if Milestone wanted to make a big deal out of it they are well within their rights.

I understand people want bike models, but to put up arguments that obviously have no foundation in truth only weaken the argument.

So from running MXBC, I'll do my best to make sure nothing uploaded infringes copyright or trademark. If you want to send an email to Milestone asking them permission, be my guest. Please, include my email in the return address so I can get a copy of the verdict.

While typing this I've seen PiBoSo has posted.. Thanks for clarifying  ;)


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BadStar

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2016, 03:28:32 PM »
I like donating. Especially when I finally get that XR someone has mentioned :) My donation rate will go much higher when the XR and some enduro tracks come around :)

 Enjoy your sandwich rc..or maybe my donation was for starbucks who knows. Either way expect more for sure.

If u charge, I'll be more picky on content..if u donate option, I'll be more willing to throw down some $

Oh and fats, your a good dude, keep it up. Enough said.
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BadStar

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2016, 09:33:00 PM »
OK, here is my say on the matter! We all know how valuable my opinion is at $5.99/post (minimum "donation")


I do not think we can stop the community from charging for content.
  • Yes, they will exist
  • Yes, they may make good stuff

but

I do think we can be the "part" of the community that strives to make high quality content and shares it, donation or not.
  • Yes, we can make even better or matching grade content!
  • MXB-Central can lock paid items out of its page
  • We won't frown upon paid content..but just beat them by being a community who enjoys this sim and each others hard work
  • I believe this will appeal to a wider audience when they see the quality being shared
  • It doesn't hurt to ask for donations either..you worked hard and deserve to

Obviously I will be on the donation side of this but I can't help but point out the obvious. I will appreciate your work more with the option to donate and WILL donate more than I would have paid you for it at all. Simple

TheFatController

Please put a donation tab on your work and anyone else who puts out content.. doesn't matter if its a sticker kit..its all for the better. You put out such quality tracks and I would like to support you a little here and there..please, thank you.
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GDUBMX

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2016, 12:29:57 AM »
The way I see it is,  I would spend 8 hours on a good skin for the community for free,  in return someone else has spent 8 hours on a new model to give to the community for free. See some of us simply make content in hopes that others will do the same and we all end of with good quality content for free. The reason we all spend hours on our simulators is because we love them,  Love sharing stuff, ideas, content. I personally love my Sims because I can totally personalise content to suit my needs which you would be otherwise limited through your generic game. We all want the same thing ultimately and that is to have lots of good content so we have a wide variety of choice. The way it's worked with this game/community the last 2 years has been great.  We all put in lots of hours work into projects so we can all enjoy each others projects. Example, I'd make 20 gear skins and upload in hope that someone else would make 20 helmet skins for me to download. Fats creates awesome tracks which in turn would motivate say Rc to create another new bike model. All of which is free. Yeah it's nice to be rewarded financially like anything but we all get something we want out of it. The minute people start dictating a price for something high quality or not,  I'd be put off by it and would be less likely to create content for the community. Ill donate it I feel the guy deserves it,  I certainly won't ever consider taking donations for skins cuz at the end of the day I want free content, I make mine free to expect free content in return.  Sorry to ramble on. I'm on a night shift and am barely awake Hahahahaha
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 01:07:40 AM by gdubmx »
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NorCal 986

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Re: Community thoughts about ripped models
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2016, 01:24:59 AM »
well first off, i like to spend more than 8 hours on a skin. second, making a real high quality model doesnt happen in 8 hours, it happens in 'hundreds' of hours, but I totally agree that i love to put work into something and see people appreciate it! Thats why i am releasing this Kawasaki to the community, and no offense to anyone but the models i will be uploading in the near future i.e. 2016 KXF and 2016 FE KTM are a bit beyond anything in this game yet. All im saying is that ask guys like 'cr' and other model creators, and making a skin/paint for the community and a model are not even in the same conversation. People just need to show respect for these models and modelers and not just say "well ill make a graphics kit so we're even", and if you think it is that easy than go create a new HQ model.